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Quote ="keighley1"Shontayne Hape had had two knee reconstructions, Vainikolo and Farrell had both had serious knee injuries. Farrell spent months out of the game due to recurring injuries and a road accident but he was crocked when he went to Union. It was good business by RL not to offer them major money to stay, None of them was up to continuing their RL careers. It is a testament to lesser fitness and speed required for top class Union that they were all able to get into th England team, Farrell as a back for Petes sake. OK they were less than 30 but they were finished in ">RL.'"
Consider the last season of the three players above:
1) Vainikolo, 2007 - 4th highest try scorer from all SL clubs in League and Cup (19), his team finished 3rd in regular season, scored 16 tries from 17 SL games. Then became 4th highest try scorer in RU premiership the next season.
2) Hape, 2008 - played 20 times for the Bulls, who finished 5th in the regular season.
3) Farrell was the reigning Man of Steel and Golden Boot winner. How could have benefited the English game to lose its best player? His car crash occurred after he left RL. He started at 6 in Union, then shifted to 12 in Union due to depth at flanker. The 12 role is known as second five-eighths in NZ, because the position is often is a playmaking role in NZRU: the equivalent of stand-off or loose forward in RL.
To say that Farrell, Hape and Vainikolo were not up to continuing in RL is untrue. All were a loss to the game.
Quote If Owen Farrell is the future of English RU success then good luck.He is not fit to lace the boots of such great RU stand offs as David Watkins, Phil Bennett, Jonathan Davies, Chris Carter, Carlos Rogers or even Sharp.
He is from the long line of nonetities who have graced British RU with their kick first, run never approach like O Gara Jones,Wilkinson and the very forgettable Scottish excuses for stand offs.
He dosn t make a break or a mesmerising side step to set his threequarters in motion with mental strength. He needs physical ability to do that and all he can do is kick. He is run averse. His first instinct is to heave the ball downfield. His astute passing, which you praise but I have never seen, is practically useless if he never shapes to run and the defence can just key on those to whom he passes.
Don t give me that age and experience guff either. Alex Murphy and Roger Mollward were playing against and beating the Aussies when they were teenagers. Farrell is playing the kind of earth shattering stand off brilliance expected of a 35 year old just selected to manage things because there is no one better.
You might be right in saying Farrell might make a loose forward.Thats what Sinfield does for leeds. He might be listed as stand off but he plays as a link forward. The person playing the traditional stand off role at Leeds is Mcguire, you know, devastating place, making breaks, setting up chances for his outside backs on the end of the breaks, you know, things Farrell cannot do. '"
Comparing players from part-time era to full time professional era is difficult. Defences are much quicker and tighter now than then, fitness demands are higher. In RU at present, the international game (for the Tier 1 and 2 test nations) is geared towards territory and points: in nearly all teams, the flyhalf is expected to kicking long for territory, and taking all penalty goal attempts where possible. It is no surprise that Owen Farrell kicks a high percentage of his possession - most NH RU teams do. Teams like the All Blacks and Wallabies, and their playmakers Dan Carter (NZ), Kurtley Beale and Quade Cooper are the exception - those players are more skilful with ball in hand. For the Wallabies, star players Beale, Cooper, Berrick Barnes, James O'Connor all played RL as juniors. Even if you look at the last test of the year, England RU vs NZ All Blacks, Farrell kicked 8 times, but Carter kicked 7 times. In the October RL test, Cooper Cronk kicked 11 times, Kieran Foran kicked 7 times.
If Sinfield were to play RU (his skills would transfer well to 10), he would be expected to kick for territory a lot. McGuire wouldn't be able to play that traditional stand off role in RU, he'd be isolated and turn over possession. So it's unfair to judge Farrell's potential in RL based on his style in RU.
Farrell might not be as dynamic as past players. He'd be an organiser like Sinfield, control and settle play, and he'd add depth to Super League ranks and to England.
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Quote ="keighley1"Shontayne Hape had had two knee reconstructions, Vainikolo and Farrell had both had serious knee injuries. Farrell spent months out of the game due to recurring injuries and a road accident but he was crocked when he went to Union. It was good business by RL not to offer them major money to stay, None of them was up to continuing their RL careers. It is a testament to lesser fitness and speed required for top class Union that they were all able to get into th England team, Farrell as a back for Petes sake. OK they were less than 30 but they were finished in ">RL.'"
Consider the last season of the three players above:
1) Vainikolo, 2007 - 4th highest try scorer from all SL clubs in League and Cup (19), his team finished 3rd in regular season, scored 16 tries from 17 SL games. Then became 4th highest try scorer in RU premiership the next season.
2) Hape, 2008 - played 20 times for the Bulls, who finished 5th in the regular season.
3) Farrell was the reigning Man of Steel and Golden Boot winner. How could have benefited the English game to lose its best player? His car crash occurred after he left RL. He started at 6 in Union, then shifted to 12 in Union due to depth at flanker. The 12 role is known as second five-eighths in NZ, because the position is often is a playmaking role in NZRU: the equivalent of stand-off or loose forward in RL.
To say that Farrell, Hape and Vainikolo were not up to continuing in RL is untrue. All were a loss to the game.
Quote If Owen Farrell is the future of English RU success then good luck.He is not fit to lace the boots of such great RU stand offs as David Watkins, Phil Bennett, Jonathan Davies, Chris Carter, Carlos Rogers or even Sharp.
He is from the long line of nonetities who have graced British RU with their kick first, run never approach like O Gara Jones,Wilkinson and the very forgettable Scottish excuses for stand offs.
He dosn t make a break or a mesmerising side step to set his threequarters in motion with mental strength. He needs physical ability to do that and all he can do is kick. He is run averse. His first instinct is to heave the ball downfield. His astute passing, which you praise but I have never seen, is practically useless if he never shapes to run and the defence can just key on those to whom he passes.
Don t give me that age and experience guff either. Alex Murphy and Roger Mollward were playing against and beating the Aussies when they were teenagers. Farrell is playing the kind of earth shattering stand off brilliance expected of a 35 year old just selected to manage things because there is no one better.
You might be right in saying Farrell might make a loose forward.Thats what Sinfield does for leeds. He might be listed as stand off but he plays as a link forward. The person playing the traditional stand off role at Leeds is Mcguire, you know, devastating place, making breaks, setting up chances for his outside backs on the end of the breaks, you know, things Farrell cannot do. '"
Comparing players from part-time era to full time professional era is difficult. Defences are much quicker and tighter now than then, fitness demands are higher. In RU at present, the international game (for the Tier 1 and 2 test nations) is geared towards territory and points: in nearly all teams, the flyhalf is expected to kicking long for territory, and taking all penalty goal attempts where possible. It is no surprise that Owen Farrell kicks a high percentage of his possession - most NH RU teams do. Teams like the All Blacks and Wallabies, and their playmakers Dan Carter (NZ), Kurtley Beale and Quade Cooper are the exception - those players are more skilful with ball in hand. For the Wallabies, star players Beale, Cooper, Berrick Barnes, James O'Connor all played RL as juniors. Even if you look at the last test of the year, England RU vs NZ All Blacks, Farrell kicked 8 times, but Carter kicked 7 times. In the October RL test, Cooper Cronk kicked 11 times, Kieran Foran kicked 7 times.
If Sinfield were to play RU (his skills would transfer well to 10), he would be expected to kick for territory a lot. McGuire wouldn't be able to play that traditional stand off role in RU, he'd be isolated and turn over possession. So it's unfair to judge Farrell's potential in RL based on his style in RU.
Farrell might not be as dynamic as past players. He'd be an organiser like Sinfield, control and settle play, and he'd add depth to Super League ranks and to England.
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Board Member | 20966 | No
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Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Aug 2003 | 22 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Jun 2015 | Feb 2015 | LINK |
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Quote ="JB Down Under"Why is income from fans any more stable than income from a rich owner/director? Fan bases fluctuate depending on results and economics of the area. There are no guarantees income from fans will remain the same each ">year.'"
If you don't link it to tangibles like fan revenue, youmay as well just doaway with the cap,as rich owners will simply buy trophies......as I said, Viable Business plans, not projections and the like.
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Quote ="JB Down Under"Why is income from fans any more stable than income from a rich owner/director? Fan bases fluctuate depending on results and economics of the area. There are no guarantees income from fans will remain the same each ">year.'"
If you don't link it to tangibles like fan revenue, youmay as well just doaway with the cap,as rich owners will simply buy trophies......as I said, Viable Business plans, not projections and the like.
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Club Owner | 33944 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Mar 2004 | 21 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Mar 2016 | Mar 2016 | LINK |
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Quote ="gutterfax"FWIW, depending on what figure you use, the break even attendance needed at most SL clubs is 10,000 a game.
Very rough maths are:
SKY 1.3 MILL
10K ave @25 notes each (tickets and residuals) 3.25 mill
Sponsorship, corporates advertising etc...half a millio
5 Million turn over and you should be allowed spend 20% of anything over that OVER THE CAP.
Clubs averaging over 10k a week will have an unfair advantage to start with, but by christ, you'd see a different kind of investor buying into the so called "smaller clubs", because for all the talk of the recession and times being hard, once you get fans used to coming to games, they will keep coming back.
Rough estimate id that Ian Lenagan has added 3k a match to the pie average over 5 years....something like 20% increase in attendances and about 15% in turn over.....smart businessmen are what's needed, not sugar daddy's'"
No, no, NO, a ' special relationship ' with your landlord is what you need, Leigh have a ' plan ' that would allow them to be competitive in SL on attendances of 3,500  icon_wink.gif" alt="icon_wink.gif" title="Wink" /> |
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Quote ="gutterfax"FWIW, depending on what figure you use, the break even attendance needed at most SL clubs is 10,000 a game.
Very rough maths are:
SKY 1.3 MILL
10K ave @25 notes each (tickets and residuals) 3.25 mill
Sponsorship, corporates advertising etc...half a millio
5 Million turn over and you should be allowed spend 20% of anything over that OVER THE CAP.
Clubs averaging over 10k a week will have an unfair advantage to start with, but by christ, you'd see a different kind of investor buying into the so called "smaller clubs", because for all the talk of the recession and times being hard, once you get fans used to coming to games, they will keep coming back.
Rough estimate id that Ian Lenagan has added 3k a match to the pie average over 5 years....something like 20% increase in attendances and about 15% in turn over.....smart businessmen are what's needed, not sugar daddy's'"
No, no, NO, a ' special relationship ' with your landlord is what you need, Leigh have a ' plan ' that would allow them to be competitive in SL on attendances of 3,500 icon_wink.gif" alt="icon_wink.gif" title="Wink" /> | |
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Chairman | 18072 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Feb 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
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Quote ="The Observer"Farrell is highly regarded in RU circles for his coaching ability. Lancaster may not have lifted Leeds off the foot of the premiership, but he had to work with a team promoted from the Championship, which has consistently struggled in the Premiership. Compare Leeds RU's players with those of teams like Leicester and Saracens.
As for Lancaster's competition, he won the job over Nick Mallett, the former South Africa Springboks coach who won a record 17 tests in a row. Fellow former Springbok coach Jake White (World Cup winner in 2007) expressed interest. England could also have gone for world class coaches like NZer Vern Cotter (took French club Clermont to 4 consecutive finals, winning the 4th) or Australian Michael Cheika (won a Celtic League and European Cup title with irish province Leinster).
Lancaster and Farrell coached their side well enough to beat the All Blacks last year, which hasn't been done since August last year.
Farrell would not get into the All Black or Wallaby sides. However, nor would any of the other NH playmakers or Springboks for that matter. Furthermore, which England RL playmakers would get into the Kangaroos? None. It is immaterial, as Farrell would only need contend for a place in the England RU or RL teams, and would compete well for a ">place.'"
On Farrell being well regarded - so is Mick Ford, Neil Kelly etc they hardly starred in RL and if they could get a job in RL they would be back in a shot. Noble is another one - no one in RL wants to give him a job but he can get work in RU.
England have never had a foreign coach so Lancaster was not really competing with Mallet as you well know. You mentioned Leeds struggling the point of a good coach is to get the best out of the players - can you really say that about Lancaster's time at Leeds?
The point about Farrell was would he be any good in RL - the answer to that is no - he speed of thought is too slow - in RL he would be much closer to the line his decision making would have to quicken considerably also how would he defend against big centres two/three times in a set!!
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Quote ="The Observer"Farrell is highly regarded in RU circles for his coaching ability. Lancaster may not have lifted Leeds off the foot of the premiership, but he had to work with a team promoted from the Championship, which has consistently struggled in the Premiership. Compare Leeds RU's players with those of teams like Leicester and Saracens.
As for Lancaster's competition, he won the job over Nick Mallett, the former South Africa Springboks coach who won a record 17 tests in a row. Fellow former Springbok coach Jake White (World Cup winner in 2007) expressed interest. England could also have gone for world class coaches like NZer Vern Cotter (took French club Clermont to 4 consecutive finals, winning the 4th) or Australian Michael Cheika (won a Celtic League and European Cup title with irish province Leinster).
Lancaster and Farrell coached their side well enough to beat the All Blacks last year, which hasn't been done since August last year.
Farrell would not get into the All Black or Wallaby sides. However, nor would any of the other NH playmakers or Springboks for that matter. Furthermore, which England RL playmakers would get into the Kangaroos? None. It is immaterial, as Farrell would only need contend for a place in the England RU or RL teams, and would compete well for a ">place.'"
On Farrell being well regarded - so is Mick Ford, Neil Kelly etc they hardly starred in RL and if they could get a job in RL they would be back in a shot. Noble is another one - no one in RL wants to give him a job but he can get work in RU.
England have never had a foreign coach so Lancaster was not really competing with Mallet as you well know. You mentioned Leeds struggling the point of a good coach is to get the best out of the players - can you really say that about Lancaster's time at Leeds?
The point about Farrell was would he be any good in RL - the answer to that is no - he speed of thought is too slow - in RL he would be much closer to the line his decision making would have to quicken considerably also how would he defend against big centres two/three times in a set!!
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Chairman | 18072 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Feb 2025 | Feb 2025 | LINK |
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Quote ="JB Down Under"Why is income from fans any more stable than income from a rich owner/director? Fan bases fluctuate depending on results and economics of the area. There are no guarantees income from fans will remain the same each ">year.'"
Greater spread - if one owner goes he takes it all - it is unlikely you whole crowd would go on mass. Most clubs will have fans who have been going considerably longer than any of the owners have owned the club.
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Quote ="JB Down Under"Why is income from fans any more stable than income from a rich owner/director? Fan bases fluctuate depending on results and economics of the area. There are no guarantees income from fans will remain the same each ">year.'"
Greater spread - if one owner goes he takes it all - it is unlikely you whole crowd would go on mass. Most clubs will have fans who have been going considerably longer than any of the owners have owned the club.
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| Club Owner | 14082 | No
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| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Apr 2004 | 21 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Feb 2017 | Feb 2017 | LINK |
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Quote ="Sal Paradise"Greater spread - if one owner goes he takes it all - it is unlikely you whole crowd would go on mass. Most clubs will have fans who have been going considerably longer than any of the owners have owned the ">club.'"
True but you lose 2000 fans and your losses become just as great as most owners (London aside) are putting in each year, and it's not unheard of to have avg attendance fluctuations of 2000 a season depending on performance.
gutterfax's scenario also doesn't take into account expense. One club could have 4mill income and be more profitable than a club with 5 mill income depending on how much they are spending on ground hire, coaches, directors scouting trips to Australia etc.
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Quote ="Sal Paradise"Greater spread - if one owner goes he takes it all - it is unlikely you whole crowd would go on mass. Most clubs will have fans who have been going considerably longer than any of the owners have owned the ">club.'"
True but you lose 2000 fans and your losses become just as great as most owners (London aside) are putting in each year, and it's not unheard of to have avg attendance fluctuations of 2000 a season depending on performance.
gutterfax's scenario also doesn't take into account expense. One club could have 4mill income and be more profitable than a club with 5 mill income depending on how much they are spending on ground hire, coaches, directors scouting trips to Australia etc.
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