All valid points I can't argue with, and pretty much what I expected. I'd love if it all teams still played that way. The game as a whole would be less speed orientated, and quick the play the balls and offloads wouldn't be the pinnacle of attacking play.



The skill factor and proper attacking play has diminished every year as teams get fitter, and players get bigger. Individuals are becoming a rarity, we seem to want to churn out robots who all pretty much play the same, and look the same. There's less gaps, and teams concentrate more on territory and possession leading up to a kick, rather than using proper, clever attacking rugby.



I'd love to go back to the days where a scrum half was always first man, and handled the forwards alot more, where the stand off was always stood 1 or 2 men out feeding the backs and back rowers, making breaks. I wish we could have a genuine scrum half like Andy Greg again, the game would be better to watch as a result.



I just feel most teams adopt a far more simple game plan now, where the only variation in the 2 positions is which side of the field they operate, anyone can feed a scrum these days so that doesn't come into it, and the game is becoming boring as a result.



Traditional half backs, and half back play are becoming a thing of the past.

I still think during play Saints and Leeds operate in this way, as do many NRL teams.



Scrums in our sport have never been anything more that a way to restart the game, hence why anyone packs down in any order, I think the skill here is how to use the scrum to a teams advantage, ie Saints are using KC in the loose so he can scoot out from the back of the scrum and get the team moving as he does from dummy half.

Likewise teams are playing a SR as first receiver from the scrum feed to take the ball up rather than the SO, simply cos they are bigger and will run at the line.



I'm not a big fan of playing with split halves, but it can spark creative football if you play with a deep lying second receiver acting as the SO to both playmakers. Often for the Aus national team we see Lockyer control one side and JT control the other, with Slater hanging deep for other playmaker. However, they also revert back to the 1st and 2nd receiver positions as well creating a multitude of attacking options.



In attack at Wigan we aren't using the FB as a deep second receiver and often the loose plays more like another SR rather than acting as a another receiver for the scrum half to play to.



Imagine a situation where 9 plays the ball to 7, 7 then has options around him in 6 as a second receiver, 13 as another second receiver to his other side, FB lying deeper as another second receiver. Think of the creative options in attack!



Look at Leeds, how many times does Webb join the line, either as a second centre on the same side between the winger and centre or as a second receiver. Or Sinfield linking up with the halves to create more options.



A loose forward is called a 'loose' for a reason, so in attack, he can float around linking up with the halves for more options.



Lets get a good 7 in the organise the team. I'd like to see Joel at 13.



Lets see how there's more to an FB that kick returns, more to a 13 than tackling and more to a 6 and 7 then working each side of the pitch.

We saw this on thursday for Ainscough's second try, and it's something Phelps offers us at fullback. I dont believe Pat's hands are good enough to throw the cut out ball that Cameron did. Finishing off the move that left Ainscough with the space he had.



However if we put Pat back on the wing who do we drop?! Ainscough? no way! Roberts? Maybe, but I think we have more to see from him yet.



I agree with everyone else that we need an experienced head for Sam to learn from, and I think with Barrett still here we could have won another couple of games this year at least. I'm not really sure wether or not we should play with Tommy at 9, because Mcilorum's distribution is not as good as Piggy's, but I reckon his defense is better and his scooting is more consistant. Riddell might be able to go 40M, but not often, Mcilorum scoots more like Colbon did, put his head through a gap and drive with his legs, making a few metres and taking pressure of our pack.

So what do you suggest?



I agree that Pat isn't a FB, now with my previous explanation I hope I've explained why. We bought him as a winger. I think Wigan didn't count on the success of Ainscough initially planning to have Roberts/Richards on the wings, but now with the poor quality of Mathers and the success of Ainscough we are left with Richards at FB, his goal kicking alone kepts him in the team.



I agree Phelps linking up in the line was great FB play, and maybe something we've never seen Pat do. Now I think we are examining each position in more detail, a FB job is far more than kick return and good field positioning.



I think Richards should be in competition with Roberts for the wing spot with us looking to get a true FB in over time to compliment our team. Ainscough is by far the best winger we have showing Roberts up.

Yeah, you have and your right. Hes solid at FB, but to be competing we need every player in their best position, the same could be applied to tommy at 9. One thing about pat on the wing is he can out jump every opposition winger in the comp on his day, and this is something we miss IMO.



Your spot on re roberts, but I don't think we can force Pat and Roberts to compete, I think Pat's goal kicking alone will mean we might as well get shot of Roberts now. Its a real tough one, and you asked for what I think we should do. Well, I'm gona say I'm not Brian Noble, and I don't wish to be, so I'm gona leave it up to him hahaha



Nah Seriously, It has to be Pat at fullback. I can't justify dropping Roberts or Ainscough, and Phelps made that very very basic mistake, so I think I would use that as my excuse to not play him. However I'm not really sure I like that, because I like Phelps he's got a pair, and he runs hard and will always step up. We will also miss his hands as earlier stated.



Oh, and can I point out, how good does it feel to have this selection headache!!!! Rather than just say "well, we've got to play him becaue hes all we've got" we actually have the option of dropping players! wow! This is one headache I've missed

Your headache is slightly different to mine. I have the same concerns about selection but I feel differently.



Let me explain.



For me, (as explained) the FB position is a key position, and Pat isn't playing it well in attack. But I like Pat as a winger, but I also like Roberts (well think he has potential) and I think Ainscough is the best winger we have) So I've left in the situation where, for the good of the team, I want a true FB and either Richards/Roberts on one wing with Ainscough on the other. Playing Richards at FB till the option for a true FB becomes available.



Think..



Briscoe (for example)

Richards Gleeson Carmont Ainscough

Tomkins Orford/Dobson

Fielden Tommy Ross (for example)

Hock Lockers

Tomkins

------------------

Feka Prescott Riddell Roberts/Hansen



Wigan to play with (for example)



1st receiver Orford, with Joel to his left as loose, Sam to his right as the 2nd receiver, Briscoe deep lying 2nd receiver behind Sam.

Hock off Joel, with Carmont then Ainscough. Lockers next to Sam with Gleeson then Richards on the wing.

Fielden and Ross running tight dummy runner angles.



Tommy as 9 has the ball at dummy half, look at his options.



-Dummy run

-Feed directly to Joel as loose play down one side of the field.

-Play to Orford.



Orford options are:

Flat pass to one the props making it look like he's passing to Sam

-pass to sam

-pass behind sam to Briscoe

-Dummy and go.

-pass in the other direction to Joel.

-Kick for Pat



Each one of the options starts a fast motion attack.

10,000 wiganers can see this, why cant the coach?



Tommy is a 9,



Phelps showed with his kicking game and cut out pass for Ainscoughs try that he is suited to 6. I would try sam and phelps at halves even before pat returns from injury.



Back line up of:



Amos

Pryce

Gleeson

George

Ainscough

Phelps

Sam



Once richards returns:



Richards

Amos

Gleeson

George

Ainscough

Phelps

Sam

I think Phelps deserves a place in the team at FB then Pryce, so far Pryce's attitude is worryingly poor, this is visible during the game.



Both Phelps and Pryce don't look up to the standard I wanna see at Wigan.

Yeah I agree LSoW, Phelps is a better choice on the wing than Pryce.



I've gota admit, I like phelps, I think he will come good for us as a squad player, however I can't see him being more than that. As for using him at 6, your kdding right? We are already struggling because we have changed 6 once this season, I really don't want us to do that agian unforced, if sam or tommy gets injured then fine, but otherwiser I want to see some consistancy in key positions, including Fullback

But tommy is a 9.



He simply isnt a creative scrum half, hence why wigan cannot kill teams off.

I think tommy will do fine at 7 if Sam takes some more responsibilty. For me I'd like to see him telling the likes of fielden, and feka exactly where he wants them to run, how hard, how fast and when. Its what I want my 6 to do when I play.



If sam can do that, then I've every confidence that Tommy can do a fine job at 7

Tommy has had enough time to flourish as a 7 and hasn't. Barrett carried the creative go forward in our team which protected Tommy.



Now, more that ever, considering the win to loss ratio it is clear we need a new 7.