Still don't get it.



I was raised on a council estate by a single mother and didn't take the traditional university route.



There were choices I made, personal choices, that have led me to having all those things you claim are unattainable. Some were difficult choices. There were much easier choices I could have made that might have led me being the kind of individual smashing windows at the Sony Centre this week. It remains personal responsibility.

Presumably you had a modicum of intelligence though.



Do you know what happened to those kids in your class at school who had less drive and less intelligence than you, the ones who left school with few qualifications and no interest in an education system because that system had shown no interest in them ?



You are old enough for those lesser qualified to have taken a manual labouring job and worked their way up from there - its becoming less of a career option now, leave school with no qualifications and you are at a very serious disadvantage and unfortunately at that age and after being ignored by the system to date, those who are in that very vulnerable state are the least able to understand that.

I would have thought there are other less confrontational ways to express your dissatisfaction with Authority than burning down your local High St Smokey. You opine, that perhaps it was because "Nobody cared" I've personally no desire to hug a hoody, nor am I sure why I actually should!







Nice sidestep. Perhaps I should have said 60/80 years ago. Let us agree on the 1930's then. The flea ridden slum areas of many large UK cities with their high crime rates, poor sanitary conditions, overcrowding, unemployment were areas of social deprivation. Perhaps you could compare, in actual living standards how your misunderstood rioters compare today?







And there we have it Comrade Smokey. I believe in choices, and accepting the consequences of those choices. You believe in a left wing Nirvana where simply being born admits you to a lifetime on easy Street. Yes, some have that great good fortune, I would have made a great Prince Charles, sadly it wasn't to be.....







Youth has always questioned and rebelled. It is the nature of the beast, before reallity and maturity kick in. There is a world of difference between legitimate protest and outright vandalism, as most are aware.







As you said in your opening sentence,[i People often tell you things without meaning to.[/i You're original take was a rather flaccid "I'm not saying they were right, or something similar, whilst not condeming the rioters/looters and their actions.







No offence, but IMHO, that is simply a litany of Left wing Psychobabble theory that should be dismissed as tery of the highest order.







Good soundbite there in that first sentence. As always, the reality of the situation ranges from theft, rioting, arson, assault, rape and murder. A tad wider spectrum than you've admitted to Smokey.

And for what it's worth, I am not scared of them. If they appear in my street, then there will be consequences. Perhaps for both them and me, but I am prepared to face up to that, as I suspect are most normal fairly law abiding people.

That was me. I left school with 1 O'level. I took a job earning a few pence more than I could've earned on the dole. I put myself through night school.



Some of my contemporaries did take up trades etc and I accept the opportunities to do likewise today are lesser than they then were.



But, it remains about personal choice. I had no greater advantages than any others. Others chose to accept a similar amount in benefits and spend all day in the pub and or the bookies whilst i was a tea boy for a few pence more. They didn't make that choice because they were less intelligent than me or because they had less opportunities. They did so because it was easier and they weren't going to lower themselves making cups of tea and filing for a bit more than the dole. I'm sure there are many people making the same choices today for the same reasons. If those people feel any sense of entitlement they are misguided.

Possibly the most sensible thing I've ever read on this forum.

Life is all about personal choices. The environment we live in, economically or otherwise, will always be a contributory factor to the way different people perceive their choices, but they are choices all the same.



It's about time people took responsibility for their actions, or inactions, and faced the consequences, positive or negative, imposed by a fair, balanced and supportive society (which I appreciate we currently are not by the way).

One became a professional boxer who ended up being found floating face down in the River Aire.



Another went into business with Freddie Starr and ended up bankrupt and facing fraud charges IIRC.



Successful school, ours.

You don’t have to. You can treat them how you treat them now. But don’t be surprised if they continue to refuse to play by the rules you are setting. You complain that their approach is ‘confrontational’ yet your approach is just as confrontational.

And did we not have riots or civil disobedience in the 1930’s? Im not sure that arguing these kids have it better than paupers in the 1930’s is really going to influence anybody or convince young people it isn’t so bad. Especially when it comes from somebody who wasn’t a young adult suffering these hardships in the 1930’s.

I asked you a question. You have avoided it and simply tried to label me. That tells us a lot about the confidence you have in your I also believe in choices. I believe that people can choose to be involved in an unfair and unequal society where the lottery of birth has a huge bearing on your future, or they can choose not to. You don’t seem to like it when they have chosen not to. There is a world of difference between legitimate protest and outright vandalism. In fact I haven’t argued that what happened was a legitimate protest. I just argued that it was a consequence of the world we have created for young people. If you want to take a superficial overview and dismiss a large section of society as ‘bad’ and ‘underclass’ or ‘scum’ feel free. It is your right to do so. Just don’t be surprised when they don’t give a f’ck about your rules, your world and your property.

No, I copied it word for word

And again, your inability to formulate an argument and reliance on labelling other people says more about your argument than it does mine.

Murderers will be punished. They will be punished as murderers are whether they were rioters, jealous husbands. The person who murdered 6 people in Jersey yesterday, policemen or whoever. Im just not willing to label a whole swathe of people as murderers and rapists because of the actions of a tiny minority. You apparently are.

I think you'll find that i observed that there was less confrontional ways to register your protest.....nary a complaint in sight. Perhaps a bit less supposition on your part might help?







Actually, you were the one claiming "Social Deprivation" I simply gave you an example of real social deprivation and invited you to compare or do likewise. I'm still waiting for any evidence that stands comparison, or indeed validates your original claim. You want another more up to date one? Easterhouse in the 1960's in Glasgow. 50,000 houses....not one shop...no youth clubs....no pubs.







You asked why should they live by Society's rules. Simple. If you wish to be part of that Society and accept all that it entails, for good and for bad, then I think it's reasonable to expect an individual to perhaps make some sort of contribution to the greater good. Or not, if you can't really be d. What is not acceptable, is those who choose not to make an attempt at civilised behaviour should expect anything other than condemnation for their sporadic outbursts of crimenality. The fact that you express surprise that I take exception to the antics of rioters and looters, is in itself, surprising!







Oh, I think we are bang on the money with my label Comrade. Why so defensive? There used to be a fairly large swathe of the population that held those sort of political views. Most grew out of it, but I suppose some have never really got over the fall of the Berlin Wall.



Again, your assumptions diminish your argument, as does repeating ad nauseum "don't be surprised etc etc"



Trust me, I am not really surprised Smokey, except perhaps the involvement of this [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2026465/London-riots-Oxford-graduate-threw-bricks-police-ministers-sons-looted-Iceland.htmlsocially deprived guy[/url.Hardly the poor downtrodden stereotype so beloved of the Left, eh?



As I don't see any common ground as to how we respond to the events of the past few days, I think it's time to draw a line.



Shotguns don't clean themselves you know!

I understand that, which is kind of why I pointed out your attitude was quite confrontational. Simply highlighting the hypocrisy of your complaint.

I never stated that these people were the only ones suffering social deprivation. Im not sure what point you are trying to make other than other people also having social deprivation and acting in a similar way, which is pretty much my point. Sees a strange way of arguing against me by simply showing other examples of the same thing.

Maybe that’s how you feel, but that doesn’t make it reality. They can choose not. They can choose to take everything the can get their hands on from your society. They can beg, borrow, steal, work for, earn, whatever that choice is theirs. If your society is unfair and loaded against them its fairly hypocritical for you to argue that their aren’t being fair. And those sporadic outbursts of criminality can be condemned, you can speak in the harshes terms you can about them it really isn’t important because harsh words and punishment isn’t going to stop it happening again.



And its easy to bang on about the greater good, when you are part of the greater getting the good.





Im not defensive about it. If you feel the need to infer im a communist to try and help your point feel free. Im not sure where I have expressed anything close to communist idealogy but hey, simple people need simple labels. Nuance can be difficult for some people and if that’s what need to be able to contribute im comfortable with you doing so



that would the case in which the CPS said "A 15-year-old defendant has been charged with robbery, rape and sexual assault following an incident late in the evening of 9 August in Woolwich, London, and has appeared in Camberwell Green magistrates' court," a spokesman for the CPS said. "We did not allege in court that there was any connection between this incident and the public disorder that had taken place earlier in Woolwich."



and the Police said "[The alleged assault is not being dealt with as disorder related," a spokeswoman for the Metropolitan police said. "This is a stand alone investigation."





I wouldn’t rest it on your knee while your doing it. With all that jerking you could have an accident

Not to sure what you are waffling on about, but if you click on the link provided,



It's highlighted in blue if that helps....

That link somehow took me to a different (incorrect knee jerk reaction from the wail) story previously, that’s what I addressed.



Im happy to address the story you linked to once you explain what possible relevance it has to any thing