Indeed.



My – attempted – point is that there had been, for some years, a demonisation of a particular type of hooligan, as though there were only one, and that that contributed to what happened at Hillsborough.



Which rather takes us back to class, to government needs for a group to demonise/scapegoat (and try their ID cards on) etc and so forth.

I suppose my point was that there behaviour was a contributing factor, as I said no fences - no crush.



I think that, there are two separate issues which IMO seem to be getting blurred in the coverage etc.



1. The actual tragedy, which I personally think there were quite a few factors (of varying degrees) which built up to this happening and there isn't one single cause/person/group that we can point a finger at and say it was your fault.



2. The cover up. This IMO is the most shocking thing to come out of the whole thing.

The last cuckoo of the year.

Take your word for it! Must be the oils you use.

Some interesting posts on here lads. I with the Government would release a similar fanfare when the crime figures are released! We might just find out a few facts which might enlighten people regarding the crime rate for Liverpool as opposed to other cities and large towns. That way, those people who have never set foot in Liverpool and who have been no nearer to it than Widnes and St Helens but who think they know all about the place might keep quiet. But you know Tories. They'll get out of anything except Rupert Murdoch's bed.

Quote Doc Holliday="Doc Holliday"Some interesting posts on here lads. I with the Government would release a similar fanfare when the crime figures are released! We might just find out a few facts which might enlighten people regarding the crime rate for Liverpool as opposed to other cities and large towns. That way, those people who have never set foot in Liverpool and who have been no nearer to it than Widnes and St Helens but who think they know all about the place might keep quiet. But you know Tories. They'll get out of anything except Rupert Murdoch's bed.'" Certainly on the hate crime front you're not as bad as Manchester. Long way worse than Sheffield though: www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... land-wales

Quote Doc Holliday="Doc Holliday"Some interesting posts on here lads. I with the Government would release a similar fanfare when the crime figures are released! We might just find out a few facts which might enlighten people regarding the crime rate for Liverpool as opposed to other cities and large towns. That way, those people who have never set foot in Liverpool and who have been no nearer to it than Widnes and St Helens but who think they know all about the place might keep quiet. But you know Tories. They'll get out of anything except Rupert Murdoch's bed.'" Certainly on the hate crime front you're not as bad as Manchester. Long way worse than Sheffield though: www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... land-wales

Perhaps McKenzie and South Yorkshire Police should hold up a big sign saying 'friendship' towards the Liverpool fans and all will be forgotten?

Or perhaps the Pie Eaters could hold up a sign saying "Sorry our grandparents were scabs!" Just to remind everyone (as if we didn't already know) how you blacklegs got your nickname.

He'd look far better in this,

They could do. 3 out of 4 of my Grandparents were/are from St. Helens.

i knew you would reply to this.

the majority of neutrals dont just think man ure fans are wan*ers, they all KNOW IT.some of us read red cafe and red issue and read about your mighty fine upstanding fans extolling their funny adventures about"jibbing" into grounds and thus causing overcrowding which could have led to another hillsborough, but its man u fans, they do what they want,sod the consequences.

obviously you lot have never done the being crushed gesture or that the majority at old toilet, not the minority,and at aways sing about hillsborough.maybe the cameras will catch all that instead!!!!!!



do you want LFC fans carted back to belgium to face trial and to be jailed for heysel???

well that s already happened. what else do you want to happen regarding heysel?

has man u as a club and its fans apologised to the crystal palace supporters family after being killed by your lovely cheeky fans!!!

you chant murderers.not one of you lot can see the hypocrisy(sp) in that chant,just as you all sing about your hatred for scousers and yet you have rooney in your team!!!!!

And this is why a cannot abide football, look at the spite and vitriol from the two above posts. The fact that either Man U Or Liverpool fans have chants and gestures about incidents such as Munich, heysel and hillsborough tells you all you need to know. Football seems to bring the worst out of people for some reason