Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
Riderofthepalehorse wrote:Don’t think the lesson was ever hidden M.R. In our competition we are split and hampered by the threat of relegation, or the chase for silverware, whichever camp we fall in, all clubs choose quick fixes to strengthen either cause, while youth, the only sustainable way forward was overlooked rather than forgotten.
Let’s hope with the emergence of young talent coming through, indeed we ourselves are loaning some of these starlets, the penny has finally dropped, and this overhyped madness of bringing no longer hungry, or physically able ex NRL players is long gone.
Personally this Sky overrated jeopardy regarding the demise of Wakey or Toulouse in a fabulous battle at the bottom, with the added spice of dragging Warrington in, is absolute nonsense, the quality is poor, we need to freshen it all up.
Doesn’t the fact that Cas used to get loads of praise for bringing through players (Westerman, Shenton, Richard Owen, Joe Arundel and the like) while fighting relegation and generally being cack, but then improved significantly without much input from young academy products suggest that there isn’t just only one sustainable way forward? Opening with a passive-aggressive rhetorical question… might have to change my username at this rate.
A productive academy is obviously better than an unproductive academy. But I really don’t get why it being seen as such a key differentiator is so ingrained in the RL psyche. I don’t think the evidence remotely supports it (unless you go cherrypicking), so it seems like an emotional thing of people wanting it to be true or just one of those ‘conventional wisdom’ things.
At least if you fail in a conventional way there’s no criticism and if you lose games, year after year, while trying to do things ‘the right way’, your eulogies will be full of patronising praise. I wonder which period Cas fans preferred and which was better for long-term sustainability of their club.
The chase for silverware and the threat of relegation and generally trying to win aren’t distractions. They’re meant to be the whole point. Developing players is meant to be just a means to that end, not the main goal in itself.
Ahhhhhh, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Mar 23 2018 Posts: 6674 Location: Kingston upon Hull
Mild Rover wrote:Doesn’t the fact that Cas used to get loads of praise for bringing through players (Westerman, Shenton, Richard Owen, Joe Arundel and the like) while fighting relegation and generally being cack, but then improved significantly without much input from young academy products suggest that there isn’t just only one sustainable way forward? Opening with a passive-aggressive rhetorical question… might have to change my username at this rate.
A productive academy is obviously better than an unproductive academy. But I really don’t get why it being seen as such a key differentiator is so ingrained in the RL psyche. I don’t think the evidence remotely supports it (unless you go cherrypicking), so it seems like an emotional thing of people wanting it to be true or just one of those ‘conventional wisdom’ things.
At least if you fail in a conventional way there’s no criticism and if you lose games, year after year, while trying to do things ‘the right way’, your eulogies will be full of patronising praise. I wonder which period Cas fans preferred and which was better for long-term sustainability of their club.
The chase for silverware and the threat of relegation and generally trying to win aren’t distractions. They’re meant to be the whole point. Developing players is meant to be just a means to that end, not the main goal in itself.
Ahhhhhh, Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
I think Cas fans will remember 1986 when they lifted the cup as one of their most memorable moments, surely that team was an array of Cas and Wakey lads, apart from Dave Plange who I believe without checking was from Hull But I do take your point, without analysis, the best times are probably when our teams were brimming with overseas, or home bought talent, but nevertheless, investment in youth is the way forward.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
Riderofthepalehorse wrote: but nevertheless, investment in youth is the way forward.
Why do you feel so sure it is the way forward?
There’s less value in the NRL market than 10 years ago, for sure. Cherrypicked exceptions like SKD, aside.
But there are multiple ways to mitigate that. Championship players entering their prime, SL veterans with maybe 1 or 2 decent years left, a squad player at another club who in a different position and/or environment could bloom, Fijians in the Army. And, yes, bringing through academy players.
Golden generations stick in the memory but are rare and unpredictable. You can rarely rely on your academy as a major source of first team talent, in the modern era. People will point to St Helens, but I don’t think their circumstances are broadly applicable. If you look at their first GF-winning team, Cunningham is at 9 and Wellens on the bench - but it is clear they had initially to buy their place at the top table. Money is the one way… is that too sad a truth to say loudly?
The other problem is that the current pathway is club- not player-orientated but isn’t even very effective on those terms. Clubs’ desperate (if understandable) desire to own talent likely prevents it from developing in many cases. Let kids come up through the community game (investing there), to league 1, then the Championship and then SL… wherever they find their level. The big SL clubs harvesting 15 year olds then sieving them out over the next 4 years to choose a couple to send for a few games at Rochdale or Dewsbury as prep for a debut in an injury-ravaged SL team… I wonder why that doesn’t work very often! I wonder more why people think it should.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Mild Rover wrote:Why do you feel so sure it is the way forward?
There’s less value in the NRL market than 10 years ago, for sure. Cherrypicked exceptions like SKD, aside.
But there are multiple ways to mitigate that. Championship players entering their prime, SL veterans with maybe 1 or 2 decent years left, a squad player at another club who in a different position and/or environment could bloom, Fijians in the Army. And, yes, bringing through academy players.
Golden generations stick in the memory but are rare and unpredictable. You can rarely rely on your academy as a major source of first team talent, in the modern era. People will point to St Helens, but I don’t think their circumstances are broadly applicable. If you look at their first GF-winning team, Cunningham is at 9 and Wellens on the bench - but it is clear they had initially to buy their place at the top table. Money is the one way… is that too sad a truth to say loudly?
The other problem is that the current pathway is club- not player-orientated but isn’t even very effective on those terms. Clubs’ desperate (if understandable) desire to own talent likely prevents it from developing in many cases. Let kids come up through the community game (investing there), to league 1, then the Championship and then SL… wherever they find their level. The big SL clubs harvesting 15 year olds then sieving them out over the next 4 years to choose a couple to send for a few games at Rochdale or Dewsbury as prep for a debut in an injury-ravaged SL team… I wonder why that doesn’t work very often! I wonder more why people think it should.
But your not used to having a harvest of locally grown players, you ripped off half of your team from Bradford. The way forward is to produce your own players, something that Adam under Hodgson’s guidance will bear fruition. Hudgell tried to grab onto Pearsons’s coat tails with the much vaunted combined junior team but because he didn’t put his money where his mouth is, it failed. Sometimes I read your long winded posts and think there is substance then the trance ends and I realise your just wind and pish. Just stay on your own forum, I’m sure they’ll be more interested. No need, anyone is welcome here if they post within the AUP which just recently, you aren't. Karen.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
So, in brief, it is a faith-based position. Those are fine in certain contexts, but imo this isn’t one of them… or maybe from a fan perspective it is, and I should nourish my feeling side and stand down my thinking side. It’s just that feeling can really hurt and thinking can help avoid the pain.
Or it’s a circular argument… it is the way forward so it will bear fruit and because it will bear fruit it is the way forward. Just one of those things that ‘stands to reason’.
Rovers rode the being patient, building-slowly-from-the-bottom wagon very quickly off a cliff into the Championship. More than any club in SL we paid the price of believing the righteous, one-size-fits-all, long-termist fairytales peddled by the rich Goliath clubs and their supporters, so please don’t give me the money and mouth line. If something hasn’t worked well for us, it is reasonable to wonder if something else might be better, rather than going all in on the same thing again.
I am full of wind and pish, that is true - but I’ve got a decent eye for it too.
I’m also being boring, so I’ll let it lie for a bit. Byeeee.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
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But I do take your point, without analysis, the best times are probably when our teams were brimming with overseas, or home bought talent, but nevertheless, investment in youth is the way forward.
