FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  

Home The Sin Bin The break up of the Union



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:02 pm 
Club Coach
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24 2011
Posts: 17952
Well, Sturgeon has now formally requested a second independence vote for the people of Scotland.
Despite Johnson saying on multiple occasions that he wont allow it (a second referendum), the case for having one does appear compelling.

First of all, prior to the first vote, David Cameron hopped over the border and faithfully promised the people of Scotland that "we" would not be leaving the EU and then during the recent GE, the SNP fought their campaign based on having a second vote on independence and significantly increased their share of the vote and the number of SNP MP's.

Fundamentally, should Westminster be able to decide Scotland's future and if they refuse, will we see and "illegal" vote, much like the one in Catalonia and what would the likely consequences of this actually be ?

For now, we should ignore the economic ramifications ? and just think about who should decide the future of the Scots ?

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:05 pm 
Club Captain
First Team Player

Joined: Jun 24 2019
Posts: 2215
wrencat1873 wrote:Well, Sturgeon has now formally requested a second independence vote for the people of Scotland.
Despite Johnson saying on multiple occasions that he wont allow it (a second referendum), the case for having one does appear compelling.

First of all, prior to the first vote, David Cameron hopped over the border and faithfully promised the people of Scotland that "we" would not be leaving the EU and then during the recent GE, the SNP fought their campaign based on having a second vote on independence and significantly increased their share of the vote and the number of SNP MP's.

Fundamentally, should Westminster be able to decide Scotland's future and if they refuse, will we see and "illegal" vote, much like the one in Catalonia and what would the likely consequences of this actually be ?

For now, we should ignore the economic ramifications ? and just think about who should decide the future of the Scots ?

still banging the same tired old drum, YOU LOST, get over it, it can't be good for your mental health to harbour such deep seated grudges.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:06 pm 
Club Coach
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Oct 12 2004
Posts: 16258
Boris' government has the powers to just say no to any referendum, but there's the risk that this issue will grow like a festering wound over time and at some point it will need to be addressed.

If the SNP win a big majority in the 2021 Holyrood elections I expect they will demand a referendum, the UK government will say no, there might be some court case about whether the Scots are allowed to hold a referendum anyway even if it's not binding on the UK government. If that happens it has the potential to embarass either side. If it's seen as a futile election and has a low turn out or only a narrow win for independence - or worse, a defeat for independence, it will really set back the independence cause. If there's a stonking majority for independence and the UK government just says 'it's not binding so we can ignore it' then there will be the same anger at ignoring the result of a referendum that we had over Brexit, and it won't go away.

Brexit will have a number of implications for the devolved governments as powers will be repatriated from Brussels that include areas that will fall in scope of devolution, and also trade agreements will have specific impacts to sectors that are prevalent in Scotland and NI. The UK government will ideally want there to be a collegiate approach to working on these, if there's a sense of the regions being ignored/shafted by a triumphalist UK government that will also fester massive resentment.

In the end the Conservative government could face an untenable position, if they claim to be the party of the Union but are treating Scotland as a colony to be dominated, they will face mass unrest like Thatcher did up there over the Poll Tax. It becomes harder for them to maintain a position about being the 'People's Government' and the ones who listen to the will of the people, if Scotland clearly wants to leave.

They might tactically decide to give the Scots their referendum and let them deal with the practicalities. Once the UK is out of the EU, then if Scotland wants to leave so it can join the EU there will be all those issues about the hardness/softness of the border, and Scottish exit will have the potential to have very stark economic consequences for Scotland. If the UK gets dominated in trade negotiations by the EU and US, it will be a lesson to Scotland as to what happens when you're the smaller partner in trade talks against a party with a vested interest in extracting concessions out of you. This is what they will be when negotiating a future trade arrangement with the UK. Many people in Scotland may well have Brexit/trade fatigue and not want to open up Pandora's Box of leaving the UK. There will be questions around what currency they use. The EU might also warn them that accession to the EU will not be straightforward particularly with potential blocking votes from Spain, Belgium etc who fear their own separatist movements being encouraged to push for independence with the incentive they can secure EU access afterwards.

So it may be that if momentum in Scottish public opinion seems to be heading in the direction of another referendum, that the UK government throws them the bone earlier, and forces the pro-independence side to grapple with the practicalities of exit, rather than let the sense of injustice and being ignored for a long time fester. You can see how a lot of peoples attitude to Brexit is now, "I don't care if it makes use worse off! I just want out and be done with it"....they don't want the Scots to move to that position as it will kill off the economic arguments for remaining in the UK.






Challenge Cup winners 2009 2010 2012 2019
League Leaders 2011 2016

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:11 pm 
Club Coach
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Apr 24 2011
Posts: 17952
IR80 wrote:still banging the same tired old drum, YOU LOST, get over it, it can't be good for your mental health to harbour such deep seated grudges.


Sorry to be such a nuisance in your busy life but, this could be serious stuff.
Not being Scottish, I didn't lose anything here, sorry if that's a bit too difficult for you to grasp.

However, Scotland wanting out and the potential for Ireland to want a reunification vote are significant issues for most BRITISH people.
I take it that, as usual, you have nothing to contribute ?

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:19 pm 
Club Captain
First Team Player

Joined: Jun 24 2019
Posts: 2215
wrencat1873 wrote:Sorry to be such a nuisance in your busy life but, this could be serious stuff.
Not being Scottish, I didn't lose anything here, sorry if that's a bit too difficult for you to grasp.

However, Scotland wanting out and the potential for Ireland to want a reunification vote are significant issues for most BRITISH people.
I take it that, as usual, you have nothing to contribute ?

Well done for not using an emoticon.

Scotland have already voted to stay in the Union, NI don't want to be unified. Why do people think they can just keep calling votes until they get the result they want.

We live in a constitutional democracy.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:25 pm 
Player Coach
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Mar 25 2010
Posts: 4647
Location: BD23
I heard a rumour that there is already lobbying for Persimmon to rebuild Hadrian's wall in the event of a victorious IndyRef 2. JCB will provide the plant machinery.






"Back home we got a taxidermy man. He gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him."

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 1:27 pm 
Player Coach
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Mar 25 2010
Posts: 4647
Location: BD23
IR80 wrote:Scotland have already voted to stay in the Union, NI don't want to be unified.


That was way back when, before Boris and his commander-in-chief, Dominic Cummings took over the levers of power. Any clearer on what they have planned for the future of the UK?






"Back home we got a taxidermy man. He gonna have a heart attack when he see what I brung him."

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:42 pm 
International Chairman
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Feb 27 2002
Posts: 18060
Location: On the road
sally cinnamon wrote:Boris' government has the powers to just say no to any referendum, but there's the risk that this issue will grow like a festering wound over time and at some point it will need to be addressed.

If the SNP win a big majority in the 2021 Holyrood elections I expect they will demand a referendum, the UK government will say no, there might be some court case about whether the Scots are allowed to hold a referendum anyway even if it's not binding on the UK government. If that happens it has the potential to embarass either side. If it's seen as a futile election and has a low turn out or only a narrow win for independence - or worse, a defeat for independence, it will really set back the independence cause. If there's a stonking majority for independence and the UK government just says 'it's not binding so we can ignore it' then there will be the same anger at ignoring the result of a referendum that we had over Brexit, and it won't go away.

Brexit will have a number of implications for the devolved governments as powers will be repatriated from Brussels that include areas that will fall in scope of devolution, and also trade agreements will have specific impacts to sectors that are prevalent in Scotland and NI. The UK government will ideally want there to be a collegiate approach to working on these, if there's a sense of the regions being ignored/shafted by a triumphalist UK government that will also fester massive resentment.

In the end the Conservative government could face an untenable position, if they claim to be the party of the Union but are treating Scotland as a colony to be dominated, they will face mass unrest like Thatcher did up there over the Poll Tax. It becomes harder for them to maintain a position about being the 'People's Government' and the ones who listen to the will of the people, if Scotland clearly wants to leave.

They might tactically decide to give the Scots their referendum and let them deal with the practicalities. Once the UK is out of the EU, then if Scotland wants to leave so it can join the EU there will be all those issues about the hardness/softness of the border, and Scottish exit will have the potential to have very stark economic consequences for Scotland. If the UK gets dominated in trade negotiations by the EU and US, it will be a lesson to Scotland as to what happens when you're the smaller partner in trade talks against a party with a vested interest in extracting concessions out of you. This is what they will be when negotiating a future trade arrangement with the UK. Many people in Scotland may well have Brexit/trade fatigue and not want to open up Pandora's Box of leaving the UK. There will be questions around what currency they use. The EU might also warn them that accession to the EU will not be straightforward particularly with potential blocking votes from Spain, Belgium etc who fear their own separatist movements being encouraged to push for independence with the incentive they can secure EU access afterwards.

So it may be that if momentum in Scottish public opinion seems to be heading in the direction of another referendum, that the UK government throws them the bone earlier, and forces the pro-independence side to grapple with the practicalities of exit, rather than let the sense of injustice and being ignored for a long time fester. You can see how a lot of peoples attitude to Brexit is now, "I don't care if it makes use worse off! I just want out and be done with it"....they don't want the Scots to move to that position as it will kill off the economic arguments for remaining in the UK.


I would let them have a referendum but with certain conditions. They must swop from the pound to an alternative currency. There has to be a hard border, there will be tariffs on goods from Scotland. No financial support from the rest of the UK, no SNP members in the UK Government etc.

Queen Nicola might thinks she holds sway but let the reality kick in of what life might be like outside of the union and see if the people really want.






Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:15 pm 
Club Coach
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Oct 12 2004
Posts: 16258
Sal Paradise wrote:I would let them have a referendum but with certain conditions. They must swop from the pound to an alternative currency. There has to be a hard border, there will be tariffs on goods from Scotland. No financial support from the rest of the UK, no SNP members in the UK Government etc.

Queen Nicola might thinks she holds sway but let the reality kick in of what life might be like outside of the union and see if the people really want.


After exit it will be expected that there will be no Scottish representatives in the UK government and no financial support from the rest of the UK. The UK can't stop an independent Scotland from using the pound though.

As for hard border and tariffs on goods from Scotland, the default outcome if there was no trade deal in place between Scotland and the rest of the UK at the point of exit or any transition, would be whatever arrangements the UK has with any 'third country' (ie country with which it doesn't have a trade deal), as under WTO rules you have to offer the same terms to every country with which you don't have a WTO-ratified trade agreement. So if we decided we wanted to be extra hard and nasty to them, we would have to do the same to every country with which we don't have a deal at that point, which might be most of the rest of the world!






Challenge Cup winners 2009 2010 2012 2019
League Leaders 2011 2016

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: The break up of the Union
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:31 pm 
Player Coach
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2006
Posts: 3092
A certain type of person really hates Nicola Sturgeon, it's funny to visualise them all gammony faced in rage about her.

I don't agree with her core policy but she's a very good, honest, hard working and very effective politician who does what she promises within the framework of the current settlement.






"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next





It is currently Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:17 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 157 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:17 pm
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
Leigh it is
apollosghost
1
2m
Todays match v Saints
easyWire
67
4m
Other Championship Clubs
PopTart
327
8m
Must do better
easyWire
3
13m
Mike Cooper
morleys_deck
7
18m
Matt Moylan
LeytherRob
6
27m
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
29m
Betting 2024
karetaker
180
29m
Film game
Boss Hog
3953
36m
Rumours thread
jonh
2332
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
33s
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2354
45s
TV Games - Not Hull
bonaire
2864
1m
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
Jason65
2932
1m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Blackandwhit
3246
1m
Season 2024
ArthurClues
56
1m
Squads - Devils v Leopards
Vancouver Le
17
1m
Rumours thread
jonh
2332
2m
Doncaster home
Butcher
14
2m
Shopping list for 2025
number 6
5255
3m
Josh Rourke
PopTart
14
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Leigh it is
apollosghost
1
TODAY
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
TODAY
Must do better
easyWire
3
TODAY
Warrington Wolves Break Saints Hearts With Golden Point Win
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Todays match v Saints
easyWire
67
TODAY
We are in good hands
God
6
TODAY
Josh Charnley
Vancouver Le
2
TODAY
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off Progress In Eliminating Salford
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
superleague plus
karetaker
4
TODAY
New Owners
orangeman
1
TODAY
Josh Rourke
PopTart
14
TODAY
2025 Membership prices
WYSIWYG2
2
TODAY
Doncaster home
Butcher
14
TODAY
Mike Cooper
morleys_deck
7
TODAY
Cooper Retiring with Immediate Effect
Moe syslak
11
TODAY
Matt Moylan
LeytherRob
6
TODAY
Swinton A
Highlander
12
TODAY
Play Off Question
Cherry_Warri
18
TODAY
Whitehaven Away
faxcar
3
TODAY
Squad for Saints
just_browny
24
TODAY
Stewart Piper
Tatty Feeld
1
TODAY
Wigan win academy final
MattyB
20
TODAY
Nine players to leave
Kettykat
35
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
81
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off P..
265
Catalans Dragons Finish Sevent..
840
Hull KR Secure Second With Vic..
792
Wigan Seal League Leaders Trop..
869
Wakefield Trinity Sweep Aside ..
1236
Catalans Keep Season Alive Wit..
1012
Salford Ensure Play-Offs And S..
1196
Ruthless Wigan Thrash the Rhin..
1350
Huddersfield Giants Hold Off L..
1562
Salford Close In On The Play O..
1352
Leigh Leopards Up To Fourth Af..
1481
Leeds Rhinos Into the Six Afte..
1653
Wigan Warriors Defeat Hull KR ..
1467
Wane Names Provisional Squad f..
1923
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Sat 28th Sep
SL
17:30
Warrington23-22St.Helens
Fri 4th Oct
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Warrington
Sat 5th Oct
SL
17:30
Wigan-Leigh
Sun 6th Oct
WSL2024
16:30
York V-St.HelensW
NRL
09:30
Melbourne-Penrith
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 28th Sep
CH 28 Toulouse64-16Batley
SL 28 Warrington23-22St.Helens
NRL 30 Penrith26-6Cronulla
Fri 27th Sep
SL 28 Salford6-14Leigh
NRL 30 Melbourne48-18Sydney
Sun 22nd Sep
CH 27 Batley28-14Swinton
CH 27 Halifax14-10Bradford
CH 27 Swinton20-22Doncaster
L1 24 Hunslet18-14Midlands
L1 24 Keighley26-22Rochdale
WSL2024 15 LeedsW10-12York V
WSL2024 15 St.HelensW18-4WiganW
Sat 21st Sep
SL 27 Hull FC4-24Catalans
CH 27 Featherstone50-12Dewsbury
CH 27 Widnes12-18Toulouse
CH27 Wakefield46-0Barrow
NRL 29 Sydney40-16Manly
Fri 20th Sep
SL 27 Hull KR26-16Leeds
SL 27 Leigh18-12St.Helens
SL 27 Warrington54-0LondonB
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 27 721 336 385 44
Warrington 28 761 341 420 42
Hull KR 27 719 327 392 42
Leigh 28 580 404 176 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 25 938 256 682 48
Toulouse 25 744 368 376 35
Bradford 25 628 387 241 32
York 26 639 463 176 28
Featherstone 25 616 484 132 28
Sheffield 25 618 498 120 28
 
Widnes 25 525 451 74 27
Doncaster 25 492 547 -55 25
Halifax 25 489 627 -138 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Barrow 24 418 694 -276 19
Swinton 26 474 620 -146 18
Whitehaven 24 414 806 -392 16
Dewsbury 26 320 871 -551 2
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
Leigh it is
apollosghost
1
2m
Todays match v Saints
easyWire
67
4m
Other Championship Clubs
PopTart
327
8m
Must do better
easyWire
3
13m
Mike Cooper
morleys_deck
7
18m
Matt Moylan
LeytherRob
6
27m
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
29m
Betting 2024
karetaker
180
29m
Film game
Boss Hog
3953
36m
Rumours thread
jonh
2332
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
33s
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
2354
45s
TV Games - Not Hull
bonaire
2864
1m
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
Jason65
2932
1m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Blackandwhit
3246
1m
Season 2024
ArthurClues
56
1m
Squads - Devils v Leopards
Vancouver Le
17
1m
Rumours thread
jonh
2332
2m
Doncaster home
Butcher
14
2m
Shopping list for 2025
number 6
5255
3m
Josh Rourke
PopTart
14
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Leigh it is
apollosghost
1
TODAY
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
TODAY
Must do better
easyWire
3
TODAY
Warrington Wolves Break Saints Hearts With Golden Point Win
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Todays match v Saints
easyWire
67
TODAY
We are in good hands
God
6
TODAY
Josh Charnley
Vancouver Le
2
TODAY
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off Progress In Eliminating Salford
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
superleague plus
karetaker
4
TODAY
New Owners
orangeman
1
TODAY
Josh Rourke
PopTart
14
TODAY
2025 Membership prices
WYSIWYG2
2
TODAY
Doncaster home
Butcher
14
TODAY
Mike Cooper
morleys_deck
7
TODAY
Cooper Retiring with Immediate Effect
Moe syslak
11
TODAY
Matt Moylan
LeytherRob
6
TODAY
Swinton A
Highlander
12
TODAY
Play Off Question
Cherry_Warri
18
TODAY
Whitehaven Away
faxcar
3
TODAY
Squad for Saints
just_browny
24
TODAY
Stewart Piper
Tatty Feeld
1
TODAY
Wigan win academy final
MattyB
20
TODAY
Nine players to leave
Kettykat
35
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
81
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off P..
265
Catalans Dragons Finish Sevent..
840
Hull KR Secure Second With Vic..
792
Wigan Seal League Leaders Trop..
869
Wakefield Trinity Sweep Aside ..
1236
Catalans Keep Season Alive Wit..
1012
Salford Ensure Play-Offs And S..
1196
Ruthless Wigan Thrash the Rhin..
1350
Huddersfield Giants Hold Off L..
1562
Salford Close In On The Play O..
1352
Leigh Leopards Up To Fourth Af..
1481
Leeds Rhinos Into the Six Afte..
1653
Wigan Warriors Defeat Hull KR ..
1467
Wane Names Provisional Squad f..
1923


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.