FORUMS FORUMS




  

Home The Sin Bin Not so innocent till proved guilty



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:52 pm 
International Chairman
International Board Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 17 2002
Posts: 28357
Location: MACS0647-JD
We often get confusion on here whenever discussing criminal offences and criminal trials, and many have the simplistic view that if you are not found “guilty” then you are “innocent” and many firmly believe that that is the final and unequivocal position under English law. This is not so, as a case published recently demonstrates.

In the case of Serious Organised Crime Agency v Hymans, Keeble and others it has been held that SOCA was entitled to civil recovery orders against individuals and a company in respect of property derived from the proceeds or profits of drug dealing and money laundering, despite the lack of criminal convictions for those offences.

The court stated that an acquittal in criminal proceedings did not conclusively establish that a defendant did not commit the criminal act alleged; just that the evidence against him was not enough to discharge the burden of proof (‘beyond reasonable doubt’), and SOCA had satisfied the court that, on the balance of probabilities, the property was derived from drug dealing on a big scale.

The whole of the defendants’ property, including properties in England and Spain, was thus liable to be confiscated under the Proceeds of Crime Act. All of it. This Act wasn’t, the court said, incompatible with Human Rights legislation, and that the court was not making imputations of criminal liability; The fact that the findings might implicitly cast doubt on an acquittal was not a breach of human rights.

So, defendants who have never been found guilty can still have all their property seized as proceeds of crime. I think this makes the point, but wonder what the Sin Bin panel makes of it?






Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:57 pm 
International Chairman
International Chairman
User avatar

Joined: May 25 2002
Posts: 37704
Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:
So, defendants who have never been found guilty can still have all their property seized as proceeds of crime. I think this makes the point, but wonder what the Sin Bin panel makes of it?


I seriously doubt that is the end of the matter and would expect an appeal process will soon be initiated






The older I get, the better I was

Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't

I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."

cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:01 pm 
International Chairman
Player Coach
User avatar

Joined: Dec 22 2001
Posts: 14845
Nothing new. If you visit Guildhall in the City of London you will see an inscription referring back to the days when it was used as a Court. A jury found a man innocent but the judge over-ruled them and had the "innocent" man hung, drawn to Westminster where he was quartered.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:29 pm 
International Chairman
International Star

Joined: Apr 10 2002
Posts: 6038
Location: Bradford
The balance of probabilities burden of proof isnt that rare. A defendant can be found in breach of his/her bail conditions, and then remanded in custody, based on the balance of probabilities.

And Luis Suarez was fined £40,000 and suspended on the basis of the balance of probabilities plus a bit!

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:47 pm 
Club Owner
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Feb 25 2004
Posts: 2874
Location: Sometimes Workington, Sometimes Warrington, Often on the M6
Smacks a bit of the Scottish legal system's "Not Proven" principle.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:38 pm 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
User avatar

Joined: Mar 08 2002
Posts: 26578
Location: On the set of NEDS...
Derwent wrote:Smacks a bit of the Scottish legal system's "Not Proven" principle.


Then you don't understand the verdict then.

This is a clash between the criminal system and the civil law.






Image


ebay's Rugby League Bargains ¦ Boost Your eBay Sales ¦ Recommended Amazon Stuff ¦ Get a Free Ink Cart!!! ¦ Quins RL T-Shirts, BRAND NEW DESIGNS

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:27 pm 
Club Owner
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Feb 25 2004
Posts: 2874
Location: Sometimes Workington, Sometimes Warrington, Often on the M6
Big Graeme wrote:
Then you don't understand the verdict then.

This is a clash between the criminal system and the civil law.


I understand the verdict perfectly well. In fact, this is nothing new as the power to do this has always been there ever since the implementation of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (Section 5 to be precise).

My reference to the Scottish system was because the "Not Proven" verdict usually implies that a defendant wasn't innocent but the evidence was not quite strong enough to give a 'beyond reasonable doubt' guilty verdict. SOCA use a similar principle in that they make the argument that while the evidence was not strong enough to give a guilty criminal verdict, there is still enough evidence to satisfy the 'balance of probabilities' test of the civil system.

There is no clash between the criminal and civil law as you suggest - the threshold is different and this kind of thing happens all the time. For example, where I used to work we had an employee who was fraudulently using his company credit card and got caught. He was found not guilty at crown court but we were able to sue him and recover the value of the goods he had bought in civil court as the district judge agreed that on the balance of probability he had been the person who had acquired them.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:05 pm 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
User avatar

Joined: Mar 08 2002
Posts: 26578
Location: On the set of NEDS...
Derwent wrote:I understand the verdict perfectly well.


It is obvious you don't, the defendant was found not guilty in a criminal court :D

Derwent wrote:SOCA use a similar principle in that they make the argument that while the evidence was not strong enough to give a guilty criminal verdict, there is still enough evidence to satisfy the 'balance of probabilities' test of the civil system.


That would be the clash between civil and criminal law then?






Image


ebay's Rugby League Bargains ¦ Boost Your eBay Sales ¦ Recommended Amazon Stuff ¦ Get a Free Ink Cart!!! ¦ Quins RL T-Shirts, BRAND NEW DESIGNS

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:34 am 
International Chairman
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Feb 27 2002
Posts: 18072
Location: On the road
Big Graeme wrote:
Derwent wrote:I understand the verdict perfectly well.


It is obvious you don't, the defendant was found not guilty in a criminal court :D

Derwent wrote:SOCA use a similar principle in that they make the argument that while the evidence was not strong enough to give a guilty criminal verdict, there is still enough evidence to satisfy the 'balance of probabilities' test of the civil system.


That would be the clash between civil and criminal law then?



Not a clash at all - more a difference in burden of proof reflecting the difference in retribution?






Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Not so innocent till proved guilty
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:46 am 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2002
Posts: 14522
Location: Online
Sal Paradise wrote:
Big Graeme wrote:
Derwent wrote:I understand the verdict perfectly well.


It is obvious you don't, the defendant was found not guilty in a criminal court :D

Derwent wrote:SOCA use a similar principle in that they make the argument that while the evidence was not strong enough to give a guilty criminal verdict, there is still enough evidence to satisfy the 'balance of probabilities' test of the civil system.


That would be the clash between civil and criminal law then?



Not a clash at all - more a difference in burden of proof reflecting the difference in retribution?


I didn't think you'd like that word "clash", as I can't picture you as a Joe Strummer fan somehow. :wink:
I agree with your reply ... and Happy New Year, by the way.






Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next





It is currently Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:05 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 76 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:05 pm
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
3m
League position
Keith Lard's
3
5m
Wigan Warriors - Home
BP1
117
20m
Squad for Catalan
Barbed Wire
29
22m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
3109
26m
Hull KR at home this Thursday evening
King Street
94
41m
Sam Burgess
Big lads mat
3
Recent
Forum at The Shay
Listenup94
34
Recent
1895 cup
Returnwr to
1
Recent
Well played wakey
Scarlet Pimp
4
Recent
TV Games - Not Hull
Dave K.
3327
Recent
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Offy86
5091
Recent
RD2 Salford Red Devils A
fanstanningl
56
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
41789
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
65254
Recent
Rumours and signings v9
1872_WiganRL
29254
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1s
League position
Keith Lard's
3
2s
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
65254
2s
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
41789
2s
TV Games - Not Hull
Dave K.
3327
3s
Wigan Warriors - Home
BP1
117
4s
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Offy86
5091
4s
RD2 Salford Red Devils A
fanstanningl
56
7s
Hull FC A
WWste
12
12s
Hull KR at home this Thursday evening
King Street
94
14s
Sam Burgess
Big lads mat
3
16s
Vegas - A travelling supporters guide
stpatricks
14
17s
Squad for Catalan
Barbed Wire
29
18s
Well played wakey
Scarlet Pimp
4
30s
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
3109
45s
Film game
Wanderer
7993
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
League position
Keith Lard's
3
TODAY
1895 cup
Returnwr to
1
TODAY
Sam Burgess
Big lads mat
3
TODAY
Well played wakey
Scarlet Pimp
4
TODAY
Hull KR Hang On To Take The Points At Wakefield Trinity
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Is the HKR Game still on
PopTart
8
TODAY
Forum at The Shay
Listenup94
34
TODAY
Matchday Food and Drink
karetaker
7
TODAY
Lewis Murphy
FIL
5
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
Barbed Wire
29
TODAY
Hull FC A
WWste
12
TODAY
Improving crowds
Deadcowboys1
5
TODAY
Lee Kershaw
Dr Dreadnoug
13
TODAY
HUGE News Announcement at 230 Tomorrow
alegend
81
TODAY
New signing - Noah High
Big lads mat
7
TODAY
RD2 Salford Red Devils A
fanstanningl
56
TODAY
New Disciplinary Process
Mark_P1973
7
TODAY
Round 2 - Hunslet A
Bullseye
10
TODAY
Hull KR at home this Thursday evening
King Street
94
TODAY
After match tv
Trojan Horse
5
TODAY
Vs Warrington
Murphy
6
TODAY
Who is available
Droopy
4
TODAY
2025 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Week 2
SouthStander
34
TODAY
The Bench - Kris Radlinski
Mark_P1973
11
TODAY
Other Championship Teams
Rafa9
8
TODAY
Pele
Highlander
6
TODAY
lilley
tigertot
11
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Hull KR Hang On To Take The Po..
223
Warrington Wolves Off To A Win..
506
St Helens Record Highest Winni..
633
Challenge Cup 2025 - Fourth Ro..
924
Wakefield Trinity Mark Return ..
702
Hull FC Start Season With Big ..
480
Leigh Leopards Win Golden Poin..
727
Bradford Bulls Spring Cup Shoc..
903
Hull FC Overcome Brave York Ac..
908
Easy Cup Progress For The Rhin..
955
Easy For Hull KR against Valia..
888
Betfred Super League Season Se..
1093
Thirteen Try York Knights Set ..
1056
Comfortable Ash Handley Testim..
1675
Workington Town Set Up Leigh L..
1474
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Fri 28th Feb
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Hull FC
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Salford
SL
20:00
Leigh-Catalans
Sat 1st Mar
SL
14:30
Wakefield - St.Helens
SL
21:30
Wigan-Warrington
Sun 2nd Mar
SL
15:00
Leeds-Castleford
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Hull KR
Sat 8th Mar
SL
17:30
Catalans-Leeds
Sun 9th Mar
SL
17:30
Warrington - Wakefield
SL
17:30
Wigan-Huddersfield
Thu 20th Mar
SL
20:00
Salford-Huddersfield
Fri 21st Mar
SL
20:00
St.Helens-Warrington
SL
20:00
Wakefield - Hull FC
Thu 20th Feb
SL2 Wakefield12-14Hull KR
Sun 16th Feb
SL 1 Huddersfield12-20Warrington
CH 1 Bradford20-6LondonB
CH 1 Featherstone22-4Doncaster
CH 1 Oldham50-4York
CH 1 Sheffield14-28Halifax
CH 1 Barrow36-12Hunslet
1895 0 Goole V26-18Crusaders
1895 0 Workington10-18Dewsbury
1895 0 Rochdale18-16Swinton
1895 0 Keighley7-6Midlands
Sat 15th Feb
SL1 Leeds12-14Wakefield
SL 1 St.Helens82-0Salford
CH 1 Toulouse14-18Widnes
Fri 14th Feb
SL 1 Hull KR19-18Castleford
SL 1 Catalans4-24Hull FC
Thu 13th Feb
SL 1 Wigan0-1Leigh
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
3m
League position
Keith Lard's
3
5m
Wigan Warriors - Home
BP1
117
20m
Squad for Catalan
Barbed Wire
29
22m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
3109
26m
Hull KR at home this Thursday evening
King Street
94
41m
Sam Burgess
Big lads mat
3
Recent
Forum at The Shay
Listenup94
34
Recent
1895 cup
Returnwr to
1
Recent
Well played wakey
Scarlet Pimp
4
Recent
TV Games - Not Hull
Dave K.
3327
Recent
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Offy86
5091
Recent
RD2 Salford Red Devils A
fanstanningl
56
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
41789
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
65254
Recent
Rumours and signings v9
1872_WiganRL
29254
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1s
League position
Keith Lard's
3
2s
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
65254
2s
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
41789
2s
TV Games - Not Hull
Dave K.
3327
3s
Wigan Warriors - Home
BP1
117
4s
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Offy86
5091
4s
RD2 Salford Red Devils A
fanstanningl
56
7s
Hull FC A
WWste
12
12s
Hull KR at home this Thursday evening
King Street
94
14s
Sam Burgess
Big lads mat
3
16s
Vegas - A travelling supporters guide
stpatricks
14
17s
Squad for Catalan
Barbed Wire
29
18s
Well played wakey
Scarlet Pimp
4
30s
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
3109
45s
Film game
Wanderer
7993
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
League position
Keith Lard's
3
TODAY
1895 cup
Returnwr to
1
TODAY
Sam Burgess
Big lads mat
3
TODAY
Well played wakey
Scarlet Pimp
4
TODAY
Hull KR Hang On To Take The Points At Wakefield Trinity
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Is the HKR Game still on
PopTart
8
TODAY
Forum at The Shay
Listenup94
34
TODAY
Matchday Food and Drink
karetaker
7
TODAY
Lewis Murphy
FIL
5
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
Barbed Wire
29
TODAY
Hull FC A
WWste
12
TODAY
Improving crowds
Deadcowboys1
5
TODAY
Lee Kershaw
Dr Dreadnoug
13
TODAY
HUGE News Announcement at 230 Tomorrow
alegend
81
TODAY
New signing - Noah High
Big lads mat
7
TODAY
RD2 Salford Red Devils A
fanstanningl
56
TODAY
New Disciplinary Process
Mark_P1973
7
TODAY
Round 2 - Hunslet A
Bullseye
10
TODAY
Hull KR at home this Thursday evening
King Street
94
TODAY
After match tv
Trojan Horse
5
TODAY
Vs Warrington
Murphy
6
TODAY
Who is available
Droopy
4
TODAY
2025 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Week 2
SouthStander
34
TODAY
The Bench - Kris Radlinski
Mark_P1973
11
TODAY
Other Championship Teams
Rafa9
8
TODAY
Pele
Highlander
6
TODAY
lilley
tigertot
11
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Hull KR Hang On To Take The Po..
223
Warrington Wolves Off To A Win..
506
St Helens Record Highest Winni..
633
Challenge Cup 2025 - Fourth Ro..
924
Wakefield Trinity Mark Return ..
702
Hull FC Start Season With Big ..
480
Leigh Leopards Win Golden Poin..
727
Bradford Bulls Spring Cup Shoc..
903
Hull FC Overcome Brave York Ac..
908
Easy Cup Progress For The Rhin..
955
Easy For Hull KR against Valia..
888
Betfred Super League Season Se..
1093
Thirteen Try York Knights Set ..
1056
Comfortable Ash Handley Testim..
1675
Workington Town Set Up Leigh L..
1474


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.