When i first started watching hull in the early to mid eighties high tackles where more likely to be red carded. I remember Joe Lydon being sent off for one against us. Now if you commit a high tackle its just a telling off. This shoulder charge seems to be the new thing for sending off. Until this season especially i cant recall it being a major problem. As for Westerman i would have him in the 2nd row with Ellis next year. He just seems to offer more than Ticke apart from the goal kicking.

Well fair enough, opinions vary, I just personally struggle to see how someone could see enough potential in Turner to be an international and not Westerman, as IMO if both sorted out their mistakes Westerman would comfortably be the better player. I cannot agree that Turner has proved he can play well defensively in anything like several matches, either (the only game I can recall him playing 80 minutes and not getting caught out in is this year's Good Friday derby). For me, Westerman is already a good player with further potential to improve, whereas Turner is a poor player who currently needs to improve to even reach Westerman's level, never mind surpass him.

FWIW, I was one who did agree with you about Lauaki, there's a good player in there if both he and a coach can harness it.

Tbh it is not Turners defensive efforts that are the issue for me he makes a lot of tackles and misses very few, it is his positioning defensive efforts and I actually think one of the factors in this is his inability to build up a good partnership as he has not a always had an experienced winger on his outside, his performances have been better when he has teamed up with the experienced player Briscoe so I will be interested to see how he goes at Saints when he can form a regular partnership with an experienced winger, however like you say our opinions on Turner are polar opposite and that is not an issue.
I don't disagree about Westy he is a good player and has skills and I would not be shocked if he hit the International scene however like I say I have not seen anything yet that suggest to me he will.
Yes I remember you did rate Lauaki, I think there were 3 of us, you, Worminhand and me

most clubs except it now because you dont get anywere when you appeal in most cases they stick by there decision and in all honesty its not as bad as some ive seen this year the game is getting alot softer just recently just like that kick and clap posh boys game

I think this is at the heart of our disagreement over Turner. I'm a strong believer that it's far more about the quality of the centre and that they can make the difference to a fairly ordinary winger (see Sharp with Martin, Gardner with Gidley, Fa'afili with Gleeson, all looked far better than with other centres). On the other hand, even the best wingers will struggle when playing outside a duff centre. You say he looked better with Briscoe, but I remember those last 10 minutes against Widnes.

I think it will be interesting to revisit our debate in a season or two tbh.