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Agree with what you say about Walsh & Burns.
Sometimes you have to just accept some of those yellow & even red cards now & then. Any team definitely needs that type of player if you want to be successful.
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| Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
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Quote ="NickyKiss"Wane spoke quite negatively about Matty Russell at one point last year saying he couldn't play fullback at Wigan because he wasn't able to do some of the things required (by that I presume he means linking the play).
I do know what he means tbh and I can understand why he wants Hampshire to become a fullback because he can both run the ball and create for others but he just doesn't look cut out for the position in other areas.
Sam Tomkins took some flak for parts of his game at fullback but the one thing he always had been is brave! He's also a real competitor and a confident lad.Hampshire looks nervous in the position and doesn't seem the most confident to ">me.'"
I think we have to get out of the habit of thinking that just because a player spends most of his career in the juniors in one position it automatically follows that he will continue to do so in the seniors.
For a start, players only develop into full maturity usually after they have spent two or three seasons training and/or playing with the seniors (somewhere between the ages of 21 and 23). That transformation can have a significant impact upon the player's body size and shape. Paul Sculthorpe,, for instance, was a lanky beanpole who was largely ineffective during his first two seasons at St. Helens. Suddenly he turns 23 and he looks like something out of the Greek Olympiad. Even going back to the days of semi-professionalism - no one in his right mind would think Andy Platt's physique at age 19 was a sure indicator that he would play prop.
According to the traditional method of evaluating juniors - Wigan's academy successes should have translated to a similar degree of success at senior level. It hasn't. Perhaps this is because other clubs view success at the junior levels as desirable - but not essential. What really matters is performance - [ias a precursor to further development in the first team[/i.
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Quote ="NickyKiss"Wane spoke quite negatively about Matty Russell at one point last year saying he couldn't play fullback at Wigan because he wasn't able to do some of the things required (by that I presume he means linking the play).
I do know what he means tbh and I can understand why he wants Hampshire to become a fullback because he can both run the ball and create for others but he just doesn't look cut out for the position in other areas.
Sam Tomkins took some flak for parts of his game at fullback but the one thing he always had been is brave! He's also a real competitor and a confident lad.Hampshire looks nervous in the position and doesn't seem the most confident to ">me.'"
I think we have to get out of the habit of thinking that just because a player spends most of his career in the juniors in one position it automatically follows that he will continue to do so in the seniors.
For a start, players only develop into full maturity usually after they have spent two or three seasons training and/or playing with the seniors (somewhere between the ages of 21 and 23). That transformation can have a significant impact upon the player's body size and shape. Paul Sculthorpe,, for instance, was a lanky beanpole who was largely ineffective during his first two seasons at St. Helens. Suddenly he turns 23 and he looks like something out of the Greek Olympiad. Even going back to the days of semi-professionalism - no one in his right mind would think Andy Platt's physique at age 19 was a sure indicator that he would play prop.
According to the traditional method of evaluating juniors - Wigan's academy successes should have translated to a similar degree of success at senior level. It hasn't. Perhaps this is because other clubs view success at the junior levels as desirable - but not essential. What really matters is performance - [ias a precursor to further development in the first team[/i.
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| Club Coach | 3787 | No
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| Mar 2005 | 20 years | |
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| Jul 2020 | Mar 2020 | LINK |
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Quote ="moto748"Fair enough, but the general point ">remains.'"
Plus Josh Hodgson is an international player, like it or not. He has surprised me though, but I'll wait for more than 3 games before making my mind up on him.
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Quote ="moto748"Fair enough, but the general point ">remains.'"
Plus Josh Hodgson is an international player, like it or not. He has surprised me though, but I'll wait for more than 3 games before making my mind up on him.
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| International Star | 4791 | No
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| Jan 2015 | 10 years | |
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| Feb 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
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Hodgson has looked good, and I wish him and the other English players in the NRL well. I'm just saying that in better days, the what, third or fourth-rated best English hooker wouldn't have been expected to be the star of the show in the NRL.
People are (rightly) criticising the current standard of players in SL. I'm just saying that, to some extent, this is mirrored in the NRL, who are down to one bone fide superstar now. And BTW, there's crazy local newspaper talk down here that Bath are after him as well!
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| Player Coach | 1072 | No
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| Jun 2009 | 16 years | |
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| Jun 2022 | Jan 2022 | LINK |
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Quote ="DaveO"Wane seemed very keen to play Williams at 6 and decided even with one being long term injured we didn't need any new centres over Thornley, Gelling and Sarge. Were those decisions forced upon him or, as I suspect, they were his idea in the first place?'"
Wane has been vocal on his preference for Williams at 6. He has also made other comments since about Williams' position in the side and planning to keep him at different times in two different roles (I have mentioned in other threads how I would prefer him to stay tight lipped about his plans but that is another issue). The lack of cover at centre is an issue but both Sarginson and Gelling finished last season very well and it was not foreseen by anyone that Gelling's form would revert in the way it has. The main fault in that area seems IMO to have been the expectation that the still very young Gildart would be ready to act as backup. He isn't just yet as was shown in the friendlies.
The most important bit IMO is the last sentence of your first paragraph. Who exactly is in charge of recruitment? I suspect it is not the coach who makes the signings but a combination of Lenegan and Radlinski. Wane may be able to request players or strengthening in certain areas but I suspect that the men above him determine who exactly arrives at Wigan. (We are all just guessing on that matter though). A major issue for me (and many others) is that we did not recruit an experienced stand-off to replace Blake Green. This decision whoever made it has left us in a situation where we only have young lads to play there and they unfortunately will have to sink or swim as there is no other alternative. This problem is exacerbated by the problems our pack is going through as those young lads have to come in behind a usually beaten pack (that seems to love giving away penalties). It also means that a mis-firing Smith cannot be taken out of the team either as that would mean two kids having to sink or swim. Had we made a signing of an experienced stand-off coming to the end of his career (Terry Campese seems the most obvious missed opportunity) then we would have had the option of trying the young trio of Williams, Hampshire and Powell alongside either of the old heads and would have been able to take out an out of form senior half without pitching two kids in together. As I said I believe Wane has been put in this position rather than requesting it by the men above him not wanting to sign a stop gap stand-off. Whether Wane chose the best of the three options for his number 6 remains to be seen.
Quote ="DaveO"Do you think Wane has recognised these mistakes? You said yourself "He just needs to be able to organise their play in a way that fits the strengths of those players he has " and do you honestly think he is doing this? I don't because we keep playing the same way, week in week out. He is trying to play the same game that brought success before with players who can't execute the tactics. Our passing is shocking and the fast lateral moving the ball along the line requires accurate passing. Bowen is not Sam Tomkins but he is trying to use him exactly the same ">way.'"
I think the issue with performance is more linked to the current form of the players than the system not being right for their strengths. The same plays were executed to great effect on a regular basis only last season but something just now isn't right. It could be that the problem comes from the difference between Green at 6 and Williams at 6 (in the sense that he is learning his way in rather than any deficiency- I am not looking to blame Williams). It could be the absence of Lockers skills and leadership and a lack of confidence without him from the squad. We are all aware of our records with and without our captain. That said I think the coach does need to recognise that there are problems and to rework the game plan to fix them. Whether that means altering the way plays are organised and style of play until timing and handling gets better or by moving different players into roles such as FB who are more able to execute the plays he does need to recognise the problems and change things. Our discipline too is a big problem.
I am not convinced that he has recognised the mistakes as yet and agree with you that we keep trying the same things time and time again that the team are currently unable to execute. Wane's ability or inability (whichever it turns out to be) to change things and navigate this poor spell will indicate his true ability as a coach. Hopefully he will adapt the game plan and we will play our way out of this patchy start and challenge for honours and he will silence the critics. If not and he simply sticks to the same misfiring formula until it works or until Lockers comes back to recue the team then he may not be a the club for very long after.
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Quote ="DaveO"Wane seemed very keen to play Williams at 6 and decided even with one being long term injured we didn't need any new centres over Thornley, Gelling and Sarge. Were those decisions forced upon him or, as I suspect, they were his idea in the first place?'"
Wane has been vocal on his preference for Williams at 6. He has also made other comments since about Williams' position in the side and planning to keep him at different times in two different roles (I have mentioned in other threads how I would prefer him to stay tight lipped about his plans but that is another issue). The lack of cover at centre is an issue but both Sarginson and Gelling finished last season very well and it was not foreseen by anyone that Gelling's form would revert in the way it has. The main fault in that area seems IMO to have been the expectation that the still very young Gildart would be ready to act as backup. He isn't just yet as was shown in the friendlies.
The most important bit IMO is the last sentence of your first paragraph. Who exactly is in charge of recruitment? I suspect it is not the coach who makes the signings but a combination of Lenegan and Radlinski. Wane may be able to request players or strengthening in certain areas but I suspect that the men above him determine who exactly arrives at Wigan. (We are all just guessing on that matter though). A major issue for me (and many others) is that we did not recruit an experienced stand-off to replace Blake Green. This decision whoever made it has left us in a situation where we only have young lads to play there and they unfortunately will have to sink or swim as there is no other alternative. This problem is exacerbated by the problems our pack is going through as those young lads have to come in behind a usually beaten pack (that seems to love giving away penalties). It also means that a mis-firing Smith cannot be taken out of the team either as that would mean two kids having to sink or swim. Had we made a signing of an experienced stand-off coming to the end of his career (Terry Campese seems the most obvious missed opportunity) then we would have had the option of trying the young trio of Williams, Hampshire and Powell alongside either of the old heads and would have been able to take out an out of form senior half without pitching two kids in together. As I said I believe Wane has been put in this position rather than requesting it by the men above him not wanting to sign a stop gap stand-off. Whether Wane chose the best of the three options for his number 6 remains to be seen.
Quote ="DaveO"Do you think Wane has recognised these mistakes? You said yourself "He just needs to be able to organise their play in a way that fits the strengths of those players he has " and do you honestly think he is doing this? I don't because we keep playing the same way, week in week out. He is trying to play the same game that brought success before with players who can't execute the tactics. Our passing is shocking and the fast lateral moving the ball along the line requires accurate passing. Bowen is not Sam Tomkins but he is trying to use him exactly the same ">way.'"
I think the issue with performance is more linked to the current form of the players than the system not being right for their strengths. The same plays were executed to great effect on a regular basis only last season but something just now isn't right. It could be that the problem comes from the difference between Green at 6 and Williams at 6 (in the sense that he is learning his way in rather than any deficiency- I am not looking to blame Williams). It could be the absence of Lockers skills and leadership and a lack of confidence without him from the squad. We are all aware of our records with and without our captain. That said I think the coach does need to recognise that there are problems and to rework the game plan to fix them. Whether that means altering the way plays are organised and style of play until timing and handling gets better or by moving different players into roles such as FB who are more able to execute the plays he does need to recognise the problems and change things. Our discipline too is a big problem.
I am not convinced that he has recognised the mistakes as yet and agree with you that we keep trying the same things time and time again that the team are currently unable to execute. Wane's ability or inability (whichever it turns out to be) to change things and navigate this poor spell will indicate his true ability as a coach. Hopefully he will adapt the game plan and we will play our way out of this patchy start and challenge for honours and he will silence the critics. If not and he simply sticks to the same misfiring formula until it works or until Lockers comes back to recue the team then he may not be a the club for very long after.
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| Rank | Posts | Team |
| International Star | 4791 | No
Team
Selected |
| Joined | Service | Reputation |
| Jan 2015 | 10 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| Feb 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
| Milestone Posts |
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| Milestone Years |
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| Signature |
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TO BE FIXED |
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Good post.
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