The question of the Bulls participation in SL should have nothing to do with their size or perceived imprtance to the competition.

If their wrongdoing merits a relegation to a lower division then they should be relagated whether it is Bradford, Huddersfield Cas or Salford.

This is what is wrong with SL.

There shouldn't be a group of clubs who are above the game itself and the game should be brave enough to have some principals, rather than trying to contrive

some kind of elite competition.

Let the clubs play for success and ok, if there needs to be some rules to guide us then at least be brave enough to stick to them.

The question of the bulls participation in SL should rest solely on their importance to the competition and their ability to exist there. The game isnt strong enough to hinder itself by having its biggest and best playing at the lower levels. It would be akin to team GB picking some middling athletes for the olympics and leaving our best and brightest to compete in regional competitions.



SL is the showcase of the sport, it is the point at which the sport stems, it provides the money, the visibility and for the most part, they players for the sport. The championships, internationals, the amateur game are all damaged when SL is damaged. Losing Bradford damages the our marquee product. It means SL is worth less, it means fewer people will pay to see it, it will mean we have less money in the game.



To make the game the very best it can be, SL needs to be the very best it can be, it needs to have the biggest reach it can, it needs to be played by the very best players it can. As a game, we cannot afford to make our marquee product weaker to pander to some rose-tinted romanticism of some imaginary halcyon days where small pit villages and towns played in front of packed crowds as each parish put out its best forrads. The game has changed, the world has changed, losing P+R was/is a very very small price to pay.

The World has changed again - the idea of clubs walking away from debts and barely missing a step will struggle for traction in this age of austerity.

London and Crusaders (? on the latter), might have looked a promising precedent, but RL could only try HMRC's patience so many times. 'Should' is debatable. Bradford's participation in SL [idoes[/i IMO rest solely on a buyer coming forward who can reach agreement with the creditors. And that seems pretty reasonable to me.

Sorry Smokey



IMO its more akin to allowing someone who has broken the rules to compete just because thye hold a record or something, maybe like allowing someone who oversteps the mark in long jump to register a score or who someone who falsestrats to still compete. It may make for a better race, but its not right.



What you appear to be advocating, is that the big clubs should be allowed to do as they please, because they are bigger than the game itself.

Anarchy

I know exactly where you're coming from. I have been a RL supporter since my father took me as a small child but now I am just a Fax supporter. I used to go to Wembley every year, all the GB/England games and if Fax didn't have a game I would see where the nearest game was that looked tasty. Since the advent of licensing followed by continually sliding goalposts and dodgy deals done behind closed doors RL, other than that which involves Fax, is of no interest anymore.



The RFL should be very wary as, up to the start of this season, it was only Championship/1 fans who were pro p&r/anti-licensing but there now seems to be a mounting wave of dissent among SL fans.

I dont get this idea that HMRC really give a flying whatsit what league Bradford play in next year. I could understand it if this was some pre-pack with the same old faces involved, but on the basis of brand new owners with no links to the previous regime, why would HMRC care? That symbolic bloodletting would make no difference whatsoever to them.



They arent being 'conned' or having 'their patience tried' by a brand new company with no links to the previous regime, playing as Bradford Bulls in SL rather than the lower leagues.

Save your faux-outrage about the lack of Corinthian spirit in sport for someone who has forgotten Wakefield's breaking of the salary cap, the Pearson debacle, their illegal approaches to under-contract players, their playing of 15 overseas players to stay in SL at the expense of the games youngsterrs and the fact they happily gave a contract to Terry Newton or you might end up looking a bit of hypocrite.



'Bradford' havent cheated, their fans didnt, their players didnt, the coaching staff didnt. The people who did (in your very stretched meaning of cheated) arent there anymore. I dont know why you want to punish a bunch of people who did nothing for the failings of people who are no longer involved.



And im not advocating they do what they please, the people who have done wrong have been punished, they lost their business and they are out of the game, thats the important thing, it wouldnt make me happier if Bradfords players, fans and coaching staff were punished again.

it's not really a matter of past glories though the size of the Bulls as a public outfit is immense in RL terms - they are no different to any other company going bust and reopening with new investors thus saving jobs and helping to keep the economy going has to be the priority ? - it's no use to anyone if the Bulls be allowed to expire just because the people running the company were inept

It's peoples lives and livelyhoods not to mention the fans who pay their hard earned cash who are involved and it's in no ones interests to see any business venture being punished for failing for whatever reason - as the RFL have realised the Bulls are an important piece of the SL jigsaw and their demise is not in the public interest when there is no clear alternative to compensate for their relegation to the lower leagues

Let them finish their franchise period with the new owners if they are lucky enough to find some and then be judged at the next round of franchising bids

Why do people want Cas to go down so much????? We bring everything to the game (minus this season) apart from a shiny new stadium. We have a great youth system bringing up players such as Danny Orr, Craig Huby, Michael Shenton, Joe Westerman, Daryl Clark etc. We have probably the biggest crowd per population in a town or city in the league, we contest on the field (again, minus this season). We have never entered administration which a lot of teams cannot seem to avoid. I don't get why you are all so against us?

Because we're a small town club and some people cannot see further than their own nose-ends? Or they take for granted what they have?

Very very good post and may i just add never ever apologise to that prick!

Yep thats exactly what he wants...rl to be more elitest than union has ever ever been!

What matters to HMRC is getting their money (some of it at least), now - and, importantly, in the future. 6 points in a relegation-free SL looks a decent exit strategy, if your legacy is turning rotten.



I very much hope a buyer comes forward with a realistic offer and the creditors are realistic in turn - HMRC will get nothing if they go the newco route. Oldco with new owners, creditors 'satisfied' and the Bulls in SL would clearly be cleanest and best for the sport.

nobody has had a go at Cas.

I'd agree, what matters to HMRC is getting their money. The Newco/oldco this with HMRC is a red herring.

If the Newco starts in championship one, HMRC get nothing

if the Newco starts in SL, HMRC get nothing



it doesnt actually make a blind bit of difference to them, whether a new company, with new owners, using the Bradford Bulls name play in SL or Championship one. The company which owed them money no longer exists and the people who ran up the debts are completely different and not involved, HMRC can no more hold the new owners responsible for the debt than they can Leeds Rhinos, and Hull KR.

They can't chase a new company for an old company's debts. However they can put pressure on a governing body to try and ensure that its members are not abusing the tax system.

Indeed, there has been a clampdown on exactly this type of "behaviour".

Those people are no longer under the governing bodies remit, the governing body has no power over them any more. Relegating Bradford will, in no way, affect the people who abused the system.

I understand that Smokey, a new limited company acn not be responsible for a previous limited company's debts.

However, the question remains, are the Bulls so important to SL that we can not do without them and before anarchy breaks out rmeember, if they were to liquidate (not going to happen now), we would have to do without them.

The graveyard is full of indispensable people. No person, player, coach or team are more important than the game.

Hull FC, Huddersfield, London. Not like we haven't been through this before!

They aren’t so important that we cant do without them, they are so important that we need to ask why the hell we are doing without them. Losing Bradford will be a blow, probably not a fatal one but a blow all the same, there will be no benefit to relegating them, so why would we do it In a pique of self-flagellation to appease some hypocrites bemoaning the lack of Corinthian spirit?



SL would be better placed with a functioning Bradford than a functioning Halifax. I know it sounds harsh but the facts and figures show it. We lose Bradford, whichever heartland team we replace them with, we probably lose 5k fans straight off the bat.

So what we need in SL are the top 10,12 or 14 teams with the greatest level of support, regardless of their business acumen and any rules which may be in place within the comp.

Do away with any promotion between the leagues, as the teams in the lower leagues cannot possibly be stronger or more financially viable and pull up the drawbridge.

Stagnation and prosperity in one fell swoop

We should be brave enough to apply the rules and IF the Bulls drop down a league, the CC attendances will probably improve and the new SL club will have its opportunity to prosper

Actually it ts the teams with the greatest level of support [unow[/u. We're going to completely ignore what other clubs might be capable of in the future. This one point in time is so special, so unique that any club not in SL now is clearly not ever going to be capable of excelling on the pitch or off in future so we might as well accept that teams like Bradford can do whatever they like and remain in the top tier.



This is the same Bradford whose attendances were in free fall before they started to give away season tickets for the price of a Mars bar and two balloons.

But we don’t ignore the level of support a clubs could get do we. I don’t think anyone has pretended the clubs below SL need to have SL level support before they move up, but they do at least need the potential to do so.



Anyone of the heartland clubs proposed to move up don’t even pretend that they will be among the ‘top clubs’, they aren’t even pretending that they could be achieve better success, crowd figures, and youth development than a club like Bradford. Realistically the cause of all this debate is 3 or 4 clubs who, even themselves, in their wildest dreams, believe that with a fair wind and some success on the field, they could possibly be roughly where a club like Wakefield or Hull KR are now, clubs who would admit that they can’t afford to sustainably challenge at the top.



And Bradfords free-fall attendances, at there worst, were still averaging more than 8k. That was Bradford at their very lowest. The season before they were 9.5k and the season after just under 14k, and we are talking about replacing them with a club that might, if they are lucky, might, in three of four years, get to about 8k averages. Christ one of the clubs put forward to replace them has a stadium with less than 7k capacity and is in a town with a population only 2k more than the MINIMUM stadium capacity in SL.



Its nothing to do with this time now being special or unique, its about those clubs put forward to replace Bradford not ever showing, or even themselves realistically believing that they could reach the levels Bradford have.

So what if they have decent crowds now and potentially even larger ones.

The round ball game is brave enough to allow bigger teams to be relegated and allow less fashionable clubs to have their moment in the sun and when the likes of Burnley or Norwich get promoted it makes it isnt detremantal to the game, or when Leeds and Newcastle go the other way, their sport doesn't implode.

For all the faults in football (and there are many), it does at least have principles on how the game is run ie. severe points deductions etc and many of their top teams have been relegated.

RL should be equally strong.

A "top" club going down will add interest to the second tier and give a "lesser" club an opportunity to prosper.



FWIW, i dont think Bradford will be "relegated", but as a sport we shouldn't exclude them (or any other club) from the possibility of this, just because they have big crowds (as we did for Huddersfield many seasons ago, because they had a shiny stadium, or even Wigan, who drove a bus through the salary cap and pretty much got away with it)

And premier league football is massively indebted and as stagnant as SL in terms of teams challenging at the top. Outside the top flight it is a complete mess financially, there are things we can learn from football, certainly in how they sell their game, how they build and prepare their star players but it isn’t perfect. Whilst you may want to highlight the example of Burnley or Norwich having ‘their season in the sun’ what about Bradford City? Portsmouth? Leeds? Crystal Palace? Ipswich? Wimbledon? Derby? Leicester? QPR? Barnsley? All went in to admin within 5 years of relegation from the premier league.



45 clubs have played in the premier league, 20 are still there, of the other 25, 10 went into administration within 5 years of relegation, Sheffield Wednesday faced winding up orders before being bought for a pittance By Milan Mandric, Watford verged on administration before their coaches and players deferred their wages to rescue them and Birmingham are struggling massively financially at the moment. And that’s with massive parachute payments which we don’t pay. That’s not brave its stupid.



Even the most one-eyed Bradford fan hasn’t argued they should be in under any circumstances, but if they new owners can run them sustainably at the level they are at and higher then they should be in SL