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| Hall . He doesn't give away silly penalties though . Think we ought to look at the coach for the current state of our team though something is broken at leeds at the moment and it needs fixing quick I certainly wouldn't get on singletons back for signalling one way then going the other nor will I give credit to McDermott for rotating squad and blooding youngsters when his hand has been forced by injuries
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| Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"We both know whom!......but to follow that =#FF0000hare would be to go off at a tangent. This thread is for those fixated by our reserve right winger and who seek to pick on him as the reason for our current troubles. That there are senior players who are currently out of form and are making greater errors is overlooked.'"
Who is the hare in this scenario - I think we're already discussing the tortoise.
Which error in your opinion was greater than Vickery's attempt to return the deep Hull kick in the 37th minute?
Jon Wells pin-pointed this individual play as the point at which the game was decided. It wasn't the only occasion Vickery was driven back while in possession last night either.
Is it not reasonable in your view for Leeds fans to assess the contribution of a player who was added to the squad and described by the CEO at that time as (along with Moon and Achurch) =#4000FF'terrific talents who add extra strike and quality to our team.'
Vickery has now played ten times for Leeds. Thus far he's failed to show any talent let alone it be terrific, hasn't added any strike if anything he's only reduced it and last night was typical of the quality he's brought. How long do we have to wait for the player to resemble his billing?
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| Whilst everyone rightly says Vickery is not SL standard its not his fault he gets picked.
What do you expect him to say when the coach says you are playing ?
"Brian, please don't pick me I am rubbish"
There is only one person to blame for his performances and thats the coach, who should not pick him in the first place, as its his inadequacies as a coach that he cannot see what everybody else can.
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| Quote tvoc="tvoc"Who is the hare in this scenario - I think we're already discussing the tortoise.'"
This actually made me lol.
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| Vickery has been an adequate make-weight winger to date but he did have a terrible game last night.
That said, it is unjust for the performance of a temporary player brought in for squad cover to mask the inadequacies of the rest of the squad. IIRC all three Hull tries were scored on the left edge (Sky showed a nice graphic to show this). Hall and Moon and the other 'stars' not injured need to live up to their salaries. Clarkson's miss for the Houghton try was pretty poor, for example. At least Delaney manages to do effective yards and defence without giving unnecessary penalties away like JJB - his first came after 8 minutes, surely not just a factor of fatigue after putting in the hard work?
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| Quote unlucky 13="unlucky 13"Hall . He doesn't give away silly penalties though . Think we ought to look at the coach for the current state of our team though something is broken at leeds at the moment and it needs fixing quick I certainly wouldn't get on singletons back for signalling one way then going the other nor will I give credit to McDermott for rotating squad and blooding youngsters when his hand has been forced by injuries'"
Hall has given consistent top class displays for several years now and his current dip in form is unusual. But one of his errors led to their first try which the anti-Vickery Club choose to gloss over.
I am not on his back or on Singleton's or anyone else's back for that matter. I am against the negative blame game so in order to balance the comments regarding Vickery I am just pointing out the errors of others, to those of you who choose to wear Stevie Wonder's while looking at certain players and clear microscopes for others.
Leeds have come through a tough set of fixtures and until the last few games have done well with some of the best defence seen from a Leeds side which has seen us beating most of the sides above us. We have now hit a drop in form with key players under par combined with a growing injury list. However all is not lost as we have a much easier 2nd half of the season to come.
Our key playes have class and will regain form. (in fact there were signs in the last 10 minutes of Sinfield stirring back to attacking form) The whole side has guts a never say die atttitude and mental toughness that was shown against Wigan and again in the 2nd half against Hull when we could have been blown away.
I think the coach has handled the youngsters just fine. Because they are now ready does not mean they were ready for the first team any earlier and all this lack of rotation talk is based on pure assumption. What is clear is that the loss of JP is a big blow as none of the benchmen have come close to filling his boots. I note the rotationists would have had us playing without JP for even longer this season and many of these same experts would have dropped him and pensioned him off last year.
You choose to see doom and gloom because we have lost the last 4 games. But apart from the Huddersfield game we could or should have won against St Helens and Wigan and came up against an inform Hull who had a purple patch in the first half that would have seen off most sides.
The loss of Watkins on top of JP, Ward & Ablett is really tough IMO McGuire less so. However if the reserves now stand up to the plate with an easier set of fixtures we still have a good chance of a top 4 spot for the playoffs when some of our injured stars may return.
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| Quote tvoc="tvoc":3mto26e1Who is the hare in this scenario - I think we're already discussing the tortoise.'" :3mto26e1
Quote tvoc="tvoc":3mto26e1Which error in your opinion was greater than Vickery's attempt to return the deep Hull kick in the 37th minute?'" :3mto26e1
Hall's missed tackle that led to their first try, Hardaker giving up the chase for the 2nd try (when Vickery came from further and made the tackle on the line) the combined mistake by McShane/Singleton/JJB for the 3rd try were worse defensively and McShane giving the ball away on the first tackle on their line while we were on a repeat set spring to mind.
Quote tvoc="tvoc":3mto26e1Jon Wells pin-pointed this individual play as the point at which the game was decided. It wasn't the only occasion Vickery was driven back while in possession last night either.'" :3mto26e1
I like Jon Wells but beg to differ on this point. I agree it was a bad error from Vickery which put us under pressure but no more pressure that when Hall lost possession and was driven back over his line also for a drop out. The only difference between these two incidents is that a penalty and then a marker error by other players (that let in their soft 3rd try) followed the Vickery blunder but equally could have followed the Hall mistake.
I note that you were not so critical of Bailey when he actually gave possession away (worse than a drop out) close to our line the other day which led to a try on the next set. Now this was much more of a game changing blunder.
Quote tvoc="tvoc":3mto26e1Is it not reasonable in your view for Leeds fans to assess the contribution of a player who was added to the squad and described by the CEO at that time as (along with Moon and Achurch) =#4000FF:3mto26e1'terrific talents who add extra strike and quality to our team.' :3mto26e1'"
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| Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"icon_lol.gif
Hall's missed tackle that led to their first try, Hardaker giving up the chase for the 2nd try (when Vickery came from further and made the tackle on the line) the combined mistake by McShane/Singleton/JJB for the 3rd try were worse defensively and McShane giving the ball away on the first tackle on their line while we were on a repeat set spring to mind.
I like Jon Wells but beg to differ on this point. I agree it was a bad error from Vickery which put us under pressure but no more pressure that when Hall lost possession and was driven back over his line also for a drop out. The only difference between these two incidents is that a penalty and then a marker error by other players (that let in their soft 3rd try) followed the Vickery blunder but equally could have followed the Hall mistake.
I note that you were not so critical of Bailey when he actually gave possession away (worse than a drop out) close to our line the other day which led to a try on the next set. Now this was much more of a game changing blunder.
It is the OTT comments that are unreasonable. Most of Vickery's games have been with Ablett at centre who has trouble passing to his right. '" '"
Ablett has [uNO[/u problem passing to his right as proven when he had a decent winger, after Hardaker's return to FB, outside him. Remember all those time he played with Lee Smith at RW? I don't remember any problems passing then either. The players like the supporters probably grimace at the idea of Vickery with ball in hand.
Even if correct - and Ablett cannot pass - then who again is to blame for selecting somebody to play in a position he is ill equipped to fulfill?
Yep! Many others are suffering a dip in form, but we all know they have talent to bounce back.
Are you still insisiting Vickery has some yet to be revealed hidden talent?
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| Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"This thread is for those fixated by our reserve right winger'"
How many 1st grade appearance does he have to make before the status of "reserve" is no longer used to defend his performances?
He is being selected in the 1st team ahead of genuine reserve grade players who have been coached through our Academy systems over several years. He has to do something, at some point, surely to justify that selection?
I haven't seen the last two weeks but I don't think I need to. It was fairly obvious fairly early how lightweight, slow and error strewn he is. Well, fairly obvious to most apart from the one important person.
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| Double post.
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| The CEO appears to have let the squad strength decline for too long..........we've had a great run though some would say have had fortune on our side maybe the last couple of years.
All in all Vickery is simply not good enough at Super League level and should not be near a first team shirt! The recruitment has been very poor and the squad is getting older.
We need to start to slowly intergrate new/younger players through the squad instead of mass wholesale changes in a short period.
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| Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"Hall's missed tackle that led to their first try'"
What did Hall do wrong in that situation?
Hull had easily worked a four on one overlap once Heremaia was positioned on the outside of Moon, leaving only the Leeds starting hooker facing the Hull scrum half, full-back, centre and winger, with the Leeds winger having to scramble back up to the defensive line as he had started the play in the correct position anticipating the early (4th tackle) kick. Hall's presence actually forced McDonnell inside which should have been meat and drink to Leeds' inside cover but Moon had initially been caught almost static (ball watching) as the inside defenders were drifting he only drifted late, he then oversped and was easily beaten back on the inside as McDonnell cut running behind two other Hull players in the process - if only there had been a video ref available it might have been interesting.
So what could Hall do any different to what he did?
Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"Hardaker giving up the chase for the 2nd try (when Vickery came from further and made the tackle on the line)'"
Agreed on Hardaker pretty poor commitment on the chase for some reason, did something similar V Huddersfield where that time he dived too early when he would have had Cudjoe for pace had he stayed on his feet. Vickery made great ground on Crooks but didn't appear to quite know what to do when he got there so IMO backed off half a yard around ten metres out and did nothing until it was too late. That's not to imply he was in any way to blame for that score after Jones-Buchanan had been slow to react to the Lineham breakaway. Jones-Buchanan isn't challenging for the ball so he has to be alert to back-up a Leeds possession of defend a Hull one.
Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"the combined mistake by McShane/Singleton/JJB for the 3rd try were worse defensively and McShane giving the ball away on the first tackle on their line while we were on a repeat set spring to mind.'"
What did McShane do wrong for the Houghton try? Worse defensively than what?
McShane lost possession but he at least was trying to promote the ball having tied in Westerman, O'Donnell and Pitts in an attacking situation - good work by Ben Galea preventing the pass. The possession was then turned over 90 metres from the Leeds tryline - so if you're going to turn the ball over at least that was a comparatively safe area to do so.
The Vickery play - in the first instance he should have taken the ball on the full. Even then he could have easily reached the ten metre line or therebouts before surrendering in a tackle. You need to secure possession at that end of the field moreso than at the opposite end IMO - easier to defend a set in the opposition half than ending one in your own quarter. I think the reason he didn't choose to hit the ball straight back-up was eleven minutes earlier he had fielded another kick and returned it to around seven metres out but because he didn't get low and find the ground he was driven back and in truth it was perhaps a fortuitous decision from Child that allowed him to get up and play the ball just in front of the line. The lateral run was simply the most inept play I've seen attempted since Martin Offiah did something similar in an 'A' team game at Headingley just after he switched codes. Offiah could run but boy was he clueless to begin with in his League career. By the end of Vickery's dash he was actually heading back towards his own line making the Hull defenders job even easier.
Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"I note that you were not so critical of Bailey when he actually gave possession away (worse than a drop out) close to our line the other day which led to a try on the next set. Now this was much more of a game changing blunder.'"
How did Bailey give possession away?
Not so critical - are we assessing criticism by degrees now? Perhaps Bailey has built up some credit along the way. I can't recall which thread that was, how I left it or if you responded - which would have been the place to do so perhaps rather than here - but didn't I say Bailey and Jones-Buchanan should concentrate on rugby rather than amateur dramatics? A fairly critical observation?
Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"It is the OTT comments that are unreasonable. Most of Vickery's games have been with Ablett at centre who has trouble passing to his right. Can you give examples of when Vickery should have scored and didn't? '"
I can give you examples of ten games where he's done precious little positive of note either offensively or defensively. Filling a shirt while offering little to justify his selection or his place in Leeds' 1st grade squad of 25 or the CEO's claim that he is one of a new triumvirate of 'terrific talents who add extra strike and quality to our team.' Yet to be entirely convinced by the other two but at least they've shown glimpses of there being something potentially to work with. Interestingly Moon started brightly but is now starting to show the effects of being in the Leeds set-up and far from providing quality service to his quality winger - Hall has only troubled the scorers once in his last eight games.
Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"You do appear to be quite upset because the CEO's pre season positive predictictions have after only half the season not fully materialised. This was just a prediction and I for one think Moon is a classy centre and that Achurch has great potential but needs a bit of time. Vickery has had good reports from the training field and has impressed the coaches. So far he has been given very little chance on attack and has been pretty solid in defence. Yes he has made errors but so have the experienced players including the World Best Winger '"
I had seen nothing and knew nothing of Achurch and Vickery before seeing them turn out for Leeds, I assumed the CEO perhaps was better informed and was speaking with some knowledge when he described them as 'terrific talents' - thus far they've hidden them well. Perhaps he was misquoted?
The CEO has provided his coach with a barely adequate squad for 2013 (while claiming it to be his best ever) - quality rich but numerically poor - vulnerable to a spate of injuries which sadly given the ever increasing ages of the old guard was quite likely to occur. A depleted squad without a recognised hooker, at least not one that has the full confidence of the coach which is resulting in muddle in the middle, a lack of consistent defence around the ruck area and players forced into making hero defensive plays. When Leeds attack in the opposing twenty you don't expect a score but when Leeds defend in their own red zone it feels almost inevitable.
Not sure where to apportion the blame for Leeds worst run of results since Tony Smith's dark season. The CEO hasn't supplied the manpower but at the same time the coach isn't utilising what he's got, IMO.
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| The CEO hasn't supplied the manpower but at the same time the coach isn't utilising what he's got, IMO.'"
and that sums it up perfectly
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| Brilliant post tvoc
Couldn't have put it better myself .not joking I really couldn't ha
I wonder how McDermotts time at leeds will be remembered with the passage of time ?
Innovater / legend / tactical genius /
None of the above
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| Can't believe anybody can still defend the selection of Vickery.......if the coach still does so then seriously he should be sacked despite my suggestion made elsewhere.
If nothing else it makes a complete mockery of having an academy team.
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| Quote nantwichexile="nantwichexile"Can't believe anybody can still defend the selection of Vickery.......if the coach still does so then seriously he should be sacked despite my suggestion made elsewhere.
If nothing else it makes a complete mockery of having an academy team.'"
Vickery is not the only player who has been poor, I think that is the issue. You replace wing, who is next on the hit list?
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| Vickery has been pretty terrible since he arrived, but that's not the reason we are on this losing streak.
It all starts (or ends) at 9. The hooker should be calling the forwards onto the ball at pace, something we don't do, and without this direct forward momentm everything else becomes rushed or panic football. The ball from dummy half needs to be crisp to the forwards, or halfbacks who then have the time to execute a planned play, but we don't have this either. For a long time we have pretty much relied on a piece of individual brilliance to make a break, rather than structure and movement off the ball, and as the players become older and slower this brilliance becomes less likely.
Regardless of the silverware we have won over the last years, look at Wigan who are constantly threatening with their style of play. Their problem has been the quality of player they have had, not the way they play the game.
We need to play from a bit deeper with the forwards, bringing them onto the ball, solve the problem at 9 so we get quick accurate service, then the other players will immediately look a lot better.
Wingers are icing on the cake, not the cake itself...
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| This thread is not blaming Vickery for the four losses. Tvoc's post is spot on.
The only reason Vickery will play next week is because McDermott has signed him and chosen him as his first choice after BJB and will never admit he is wrong. Once McDermott has decided who he likes and dislikes, he doesn't change his opinion. McShane should be the starting 9 and Vickery should be nowhere near the team.
Juan comparing Vickery's appalling play to Hall's error is extremely daft. Hall getting trapped in his in goal was down to a good fast kick. Vickery's run was ridiculous, did he think the tryline was the touchline? Vickery is not safe under the kick, he is not safe once he retrieves the kick, he has no speed, no power and his positional play and defence is poor but apart from that he's a good player.
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| I agree with Batley - partly because I've said it before, but also because its so basic that I think it sometimes gets overlooked. Brad Fittler said exactly the same thing on TV this morning - without accurate quick passing from acting half you'll always struggle to score tries.
Burrow can be very dangerous from acting half, but his passing from there is not consistently up to scratch. That causes receivers to have to watch the ball they get far more closely, which slows them down - even when the ball is half decent, never mind misdirected.
As for Vickery, I don't have a problem with him being dropped. I'd say he's had enough chances now - far more than others before him in fact. But scapegoating him when players who can do much better are playing just as badly is missing the point.
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| Despite the rhetoric of Juan and a couple of others, nobody that I've noticed is claiming that Leeds's problems are down to Vickery. I'm sure everyone on this board wishes him well even if they have no confidence that he'll do well. However the fact that he's in the team can be seen as a symptom of Leeds's problems (dwindling quality of recruitment, questionable selections and tactics over the regular season), rather than the cause of it, and I think that's how it's been called. He's not been scapegoated, he's just been judged.
Those with longer memories will shudder to recall Mark Wilkes and Rex Terp, backpackers who chanced their way into a Leeds lineup. The difference there was that 1) Leeds were a semi-pro club playing in front of 6k gates with dirt-cheap tickets, and 2) It was clear after one game to anyone who'd watched Rugby before that Terp and Wilkes were nowhere near top-league standard and they were never seen again. Joe Vickery has somehow played 10 times. This isn't his fault, but it is *someone's* fault and really shouldn't be happening at a club like Leeds.
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| Vickery is the equivalent of a people carrier in a formula 1 race
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| Quote Lawrie L="Lawrie L"Vickery is the equivalent of a people carrier in a formula 1 race'"
I wouldn't go that far.
Renault once put an F1 engine in an Espace.
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| Great amount of bullying on this thread from lots of folk who have never played the game, he's a backup winger, doing his best which hey might not be enough.
If it ain't then out illustrious coach has a decision to make!!
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| Quote Brian McDonut="Brian McDonut"Great amount of bullying on this thread from lots of folk who have never played the game, he's a backup winger, doing his best which hey might not be enough.
If it ain't then out illustrious coach has a decision to make!!'"
TBH you might find that most of the folk who post on here have actually played the game - some to a very high standard indeed.
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Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 124 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2014 | Oct 2014 | LINK |
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TO BE FIXED |
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| Quote Brian McDonut="Brian McDonut"Great amount of bullying on this thread from lots of folk who have never played the game, he's a backup winger, doing his best which hey might not be enough.
If it ain't then out illustrious coach has a decision to make!!'"
Agree let's leave the lad alone now
I'm e at my job too but don't have a forum reminding me all the time 
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