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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"My understanding is that there are legal/pensions/tax differences anyway – and the civil partnership was not and is not marriage, which is a particular social construct.
Get hitched in a registry office and you're still married.. The original legislation was to enable LGBT couple to formalise their relationships, but without the big emotional row we're getting now because marriage is something different again.
The reality is that it means different things for different people; it has never meant the same throughout all human history or been carried out in the same way. but for many people it appears to be considered the apotheosis of a public statement of commitment.
Not all LGBT people will want to 'upgrade' their civil partnership into a marriage. They will have a choice (which they do not currently have). So the choice should also be extended to straight couple who don't want to marry but wish for some legal formality etc.'" Indeed.
Equality should be a 2 way street. |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"
The reality is that it means different things for different people; it has never meant the same throughout all human history or been carried out in the same way. '"
It didn't even mean the same throughout the relatively short space of time covered by The Bible, despite what those who use religion to justify their bigotry would have us believe. |
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| Quote Dally="Dally"I still think the concept of gay "marriage" is ludicrous. It seems to me that the concept of marriage came about as a mechanism for holding couples together for the long period of time needed to raise human offspring. The fact that gay people cannot procreate seems to make it a wholly unneccesary concept so far as they are concerned. By all means allow them the same legal rights but let's keep the word and concept of "marriage" true to its original and cultural meaning.'"
Aye, well.
You're wrong and it appears to me, from your past rantings, that your opposition is rooted in some kind of feeling of superiority over gay people and you just can't stomach the fact that their love for each other might be just as valid as yours. |
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| Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo"Aye, well.
You're wrong and it appears to me, from your past rantings, that your opposition is rooted in some kind of feeling of superiority over gay people and you just can't stomach the fact that their love for each other might be just as valid as yours.'"
So you appear know what I think now!? |
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| Quote Dally="Dally"So you appear know what I think now!?'"
No. he said on the basis of "your past rantings". The two are not necessarily one and the same.  |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"My understanding is that there are legal/pensions/tax differences anyway – and the civil partnership was not and is not marriage, which is a particular social construct.
Get hitched in a registry office and you're still married.. The original legislation was to enable LGBT couple to formalise their relationships, but without the big emotional row we're getting now because marriage is something different again.
The reality is that it means different things for different people; it has never meant the same throughout all human history or been carried out in the same way. but for many people it appears to be considered the apotheosis of a public statement of commitment.
Not all LGBT people will want to 'upgrade' their civil partnership into a marriage. They will have a choice (which they do not currently have). So the choice should also be extended to straight couple who don't want to marry but wish for some legal formality etc.'"
I was under the impression that there aren't any legal/pension/tax differences. If there are, then there shouldn't be. It would certainly be wrong for there to be two distinct legal institutions with different legal rights. Not least because it would be confusing and misleading for those entering into civil partnerships. I would bet that 90+% of those entering into a civil partnership would do so believing that they were gaining the same legal rights of a marriage.
I don't see anything wrong in people describing their relationship as a marriage, civil partnership, common law marriage, cohabitation or whatever. But there shouldn't be different legal institutions. |
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| Quote Cibaman="Cibaman"I was under the impression that there aren't any legal/pension/tax differences. If there are, then there shouldn't be. It would certainly be wrong for there to be two distinct legal institutions with different legal rights. Not least because it would be confusing and misleading for those entering into civil partnerships. I would bet that 90+% of those entering into a civil partnership would do so believing that they were gaining the same legal rights of a marriage.
I don't see anything wrong in people describing their relationship as a marriage, civil partnership, common law marriage, cohabitation or whatever. But there shouldn't be different legal institutions.'"
See the link to Lord Tebbit's interview to see where this could all lead from a tax planning angle. |
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| Quote Dally="Dally"See the link to Lord Tebbit's interview to see where this could all lead from a tax planning angle.'"
Lord Tebbit misses the point, the VERY BIG point that its not possible to legally marry your own blood relative, whether that be your children or your siblings.
For some reason he is under the impression that any new legislation to allow gay people to legally "marry" instead of have a civil partnership will include the provision to marry within your family too, indeed his quote is "we’ve got to make these same-sex marriages available to all. It would lift my worries about inheritance tax because maybe I’d be allowed to marry my son. Why not?"
He is an idiot.
I'll excuse him though because he's an old man and once had his pyjamas blown off by the IRA, that sort of thing is bound to affect your thinking process as you reach your twilight years - I just wish The Mail would leave him alone to sit on his porch and shake a fist at passing buses like all the other cranky old men though. |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"No. he said on the basis of "your past rantings". The two are not necessarily one and the same.
'"
Actually that's not quite right.
Dally's response was:
Quote MintballSo you appear know what I think now!?'"
This confirms that the OP has correctly identified what Dally thinks. (As you couldn't possibly [iappear[/i to know what I'm thinking, unless you correctly tell me what it is.)  |
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| Quote JerryChicken="JerryChicken"Lord Tebbit misses the point, the VERY BIG point that its not possible to legally marry your own blood relative, whether that be your children or your siblings.
For some reason he is under the impression that any new legislation to allow gay people to legally "marry" instead of have a civil partnership will include the provision to marry within your family too, indeed his quote is "we’ve got to make these same-sex marriages available to all. It would lift my worries about inheritance tax because maybe I’d be allowed to marry my son. Why not?"
He is an idiot.
I'll excuse him though because he's an old man and once had his pyjamas blown off by the IRA, that sort of thing is bound to affect your thinking process as you reach your twilight years - I just wish The Mail would leave him alone to sit on his porch and shake a fist at passing buses like all the other cranky old men though.'"
If anyone needs a little distraction from the Dally Wail, you could do worse than read the comments from the very same swivel-eyed loons in The Spectator, [url=http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/05/mps-defeat-wrecking-amendment-as-cameron-tries-to-patch-things-up-with-grassroots/Especially this one[/url. There are some who claim that incest is not illegal in Belgium and that Peter Tatchell is just waiting for same-sex marriage to become law, so that he can then push for the right to shag 14 year olds.
On the subject of taking advice from flaky old politicians, I have always questioned any advice received from anyone with liver spots |
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| Quote El Barbudo="El Barbudo" just can't stomach the fact that their love for each other might be just as valid as yours.'"
That's the crux of it in my view. The opponents of gay rights just think that "being gay" is merely a not entirely unsatisfying phase during their boarding school years, and "love" can only happen between a man and a woman. |
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The reason Tory backbenchers are against gay marriage could be because it'd make it more difficult to find a casual gay partner when they fancy a bit away from the wife.
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| Quote JerryChicken="JerryChicken"Lord Tebbit misses the point, the VERY BIG point that its not possible to legally marry your own blood relative, whether that be your children or your siblings.
'"
I don't think he does. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently, now alot of people think gay marriage is acceptable. If you start to erode the taboos that hold society together then you end up with all sorts of degradation that ultimately causes society to break down. Societies need discipline and rules to function properly and sustain themselves. Hedonism leads to decline. Look at the succesful soceties - China, Japan, USA, Germany, UK of the past - all built on discipline / morality. |
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[url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gay-marriage-legislation-passed-despite-1903291List of MPs who voted against same-sex marriage[/url
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| Quote cod'ead="cod'ead"[url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gay-marriage-legislation-passed-despite-1903291List of MPs who voted against same-sex marriage[/url'"
Glad to see our local MP, Peter Lilley voted against. He did say he was against it a house party a couple of years ago. I was very tempted to say at the time "how is Michael?" but, unlike me, I refrained. (I should point out that I understand that at the time those [urumours[/u circulated - many moons ago - they were flatly denied). |
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| Quote Dally="Dally"I don't think he does. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently, now alot of people think gay marriage is acceptable. If you start to erode the taboos that hold society together then you end up with all sorts of degradation that ultimately causes society to break down. Societies need discipline and rules to function properly and sustain themselves. Hedonism leads to decline. Look at the succesful soceties - China, Japan, USA, Germany, UK of the past - all built on discipline / morality.'"
Lets just pause for a moment and consider your paragraph (above), I have a couple of questions for you ...
1. Is the viewpoint offered in the paragraph your own personal point of view or are you just playing devils advocate ?
2. Are you seriously suggesting that homosexuality is degrading, a taboo, hedonistic, immoral, and should still be illegal ?
We need to know the answers to those two questions, particularly the first, before discussing the issues. |
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| Quote Dally="Dally"I don't think he does. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently, now alot of people think gay marriage is acceptable. If you start to erode the taboos that hold society together then you end up with all sorts of degradation that ultimately causes society to break down. Societies need discipline and rules to function properly and sustain themselves. Hedonism leads to decline. Look at the succesful soceties - China, Japan, USA, Germany, UK of the past - all built on discipline / morality.'"
..................and hetrosexuals guarantee this do they. Don't you think that certain 'taboos' as you call them need to be put in the bin of history along with such practices as drowning women to check if they are witches. A lot of problems we have in this country are because of the repression we have seen over the centuries, such as gays being force into 'normal' lifestyles through fear of persecution. I doubt the fabric of our society can crash any lower at this moment in time, but recognising two peoples right to equal status would not be a catalyst even if it could get lower.
If two gay men or two lesbians feel the need to marry, why the hell should they be prevented, all this 'man & women' only bollox is something we should have left in the 19th century, not something we should drag into the 21st with us.
Your probably worried about the value of your house dropping should any of the 'deviants' move in next door  |
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| Quote JerryChicken="JerryChicken"Lets just pause for a moment and consider your paragraph (above), I have a couple of questions for you ...
1. Is the viewpoint offered in the paragraph your own personal point of view or are you just playing devils advocate ?
2. Are you seriously suggesting that homosexuality is degrading, a taboo, hedonistic, immoral, and should still be illegal ?
We need to know the answers to those two questions, particularly the first, before discussing the issues.'"
He simply must be playing devil's advocate. Surely not even Dally is deeply unpleasant and/or foolish enough to actually believe that guff. |
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Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.'"
The only statement that buffoon made was "I am mentally ill". |
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| Quote JerryChicken="JerryChicken"The only statement that buffoon made was "I am mentally ill".'"
I know what you mean, but I'm loathe to agree entirely – if only that it suggests that mental illness makes you a "buffoon".
And now being lauded by Le Pen. |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.'"
Personally, I think more opponents of equal rights should take this course of action. |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"My understanding is that there are legal/pensions/tax differences anyway – and the civil partnership was not and is not marriage, which is a particular social construct.
Get hitched in a registry office and you're still married.. The original legislation was to enable LGBT couple to formalise their relationships, but without the big emotional row we're getting now because marriage is something different again.
The reality is that it means different things for different people; it has never meant the same throughout all human history or been carried out in the same way. but for many people it appears to be considered the apotheosis of a public statement of commitment.
Not all LGBT people will want to 'upgrade' their civil partnership into a marriage. They will have a choice (which they do not currently have). So the choice should also be extended to straight couple who don't want to marry but wish for some legal formality etc.'"
I still find the differences between entering into a civil partnership and getting married in a registry office moot if they both incur the same legal standing.
I would imagine to do either it has to be legal for you to do so (e.g. not already married or in another civil partnership), there will be some formality to be gone through with a suitable public servant, no doubt the registrar, in both cases and the act will have to be witnessed.
Anyone who sees a difference between a minimal registry office wedding and a civil partnership when after the event both leave the couple in exactly the same legal position is far too hung up on semantics IMO. |
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| Quote Mintball="Mintball"Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.'"
I honestly find it difficult to believe that someone can get so exercised by such a trivial issue. |
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Quote Dally="Dally".. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently,'"
It was? Under what law?
Quote Dally="Dally".. Hedonism leads to decline. '"
WTF has "hedonism" got to do with homosexuality?
Actually i think I know, you are obsessed with the physical act of men inserting their sexual organs into another man's rectum. That, to you, IS homosexuality, that is what you think is the be all and end all, and you disapprove. this is why you mistakenly belive that homosexuality was illegal. It wasn't. Certain sexual acts between males were illegal, NOt the state of being homosexual. You would do well to try to understand that. Homosexuality is as much about women as men, and is not in either case defined by pleasures of sexual intercourse, any more than heterosexual love is.
To put it another way, if homosexuality=hedonism, what is your argument why equally heterosexuality doesn not = hedonism? What is the difference in this respect?
Quote Dally="Dally".. Look at the succesful soceties '"
Oooh, yes, let's. (Why didn't you mention Greece, I wonder?)
Quote Dally="Dally".. China, '"
www.policymic.com/articles/36313 ... ted-states
Have you heard of the Emperor Wu?
Quote Dally="Dally".. Japan'"
japanhistory-homo.blogspot.co.uk/
Quote DallyThe people of the West are not aware that there once existed in Japan a cultural tradition of homosexuality comparable to that of ancient Greece. During a period of time in which the traditional civilization of Japan reached its perfection, the homosexual love was considered a passion more noble and more gracious than heterosexuality. '"
I'd say that it was the influx of christian missionaries which turned that around in Japan (as the article agrees) but that was only [iafter[/i the foundation of one of the most successful societies;
Quote Dally="Dally".. USA '"
You're joking, right?
Quote Dally="Dally"..Germany, '"
This is perhaps your most shocking example. You must, presumably, be aware that [url=http://www.qrd.org/qrd/culture/1995/gay.culture.flourished.prenazi.germany-10.95gay culture flourished in pre-Nazi Germany[/url
I would like to believe that you are not implying the attempted eradication of homosexuals (amongst others) by the Nazis is an example of a "successful society"?
I suggest some of [url=http://main.uab.edu/Sites/students/life/safe-zone/33566/these people[/url contributed to successful societies, including such deviants as da Vinci, Hans Christian Andersen, Michelangelo, Socrates, Peter the Great, Oscar Wilde, Keynes, Proust, Plato, Cole Porter, WH Auden to name but a smattering. Or are they all the sort of deviants to whom you'd pin pink triangles? |
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Quote Dally="Dally".. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently,'"
It was? Under what law?
Quote Dally="Dally".. Hedonism leads to decline. '"
WTF has "hedonism" got to do with homosexuality?
Actually i think I know, you are obsessed with the physical act of men inserting their sexual organs into another man's rectum. That, to you, IS homosexuality, that is what you think is the be all and end all, and you disapprove. this is why you mistakenly belive that homosexuality was illegal. It wasn't. Certain sexual acts between males were illegal, NOt the state of being homosexual. You would do well to try to understand that. Homosexuality is as much about women as men, and is not in either case defined by pleasures of sexual intercourse, any more than heterosexual love is.
To put it another way, if homosexuality=hedonism, what is your argument why equally heterosexuality doesn not = hedonism? What is the difference in this respect?
Quote Dally="Dally".. Look at the succesful soceties '"
Oooh, yes, let's. (Why didn't you mention Greece, I wonder?)
Quote Dally="Dally".. China, '"
www.policymic.com/articles/36313 ... ted-states
Have you heard of the Emperor Wu?
Quote Dally="Dally".. Japan'"
japanhistory-homo.blogspot.co.uk/
Quote DallyThe people of the West are not aware that there once existed in Japan a cultural tradition of homosexuality comparable to that of ancient Greece. During a period of time in which the traditional civilization of Japan reached its perfection, the homosexual love was considered a passion more noble and more gracious than heterosexuality. '"
I'd say that it was the influx of christian missionaries which turned that around in Japan (as the article agrees) but that was only [iafter[/i the foundation of one of the most successful societies;
Quote Dally="Dally".. USA '"
You're joking, right?
Quote Dally="Dally"..Germany, '"
This is perhaps your most shocking example. You must, presumably, be aware that [url=http://www.qrd.org/qrd/culture/1995/gay.culture.flourished.prenazi.germany-10.95gay culture flourished in pre-Nazi Germany[/url
I would like to believe that you are not implying the attempted eradication of homosexuals (amongst others) by the Nazis is an example of a "successful society"?
I suggest some of [url=http://main.uab.edu/Sites/students/life/safe-zone/33566/these people[/url contributed to successful societies, including such deviants as da Vinci, Hans Christian Andersen, Michelangelo, Socrates, Peter the Great, Oscar Wilde, Keynes, Proust, Plato, Cole Porter, WH Auden to name but a smattering. Or are they all the sort of deviants to whom you'd pin pink triangles? | |
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