How are they non-removable?



MEP’s and governments of the 28 put them in place. Quite democratic.

Read about Martin selmayr, also the appointment of the drunkard , in spite of protests from several countries. Including David Cameron. Note that the EU have threatened Italy with a heavy fine ,because they don’t approve of the Italian governments budget. Democratic, definitely not.

Reading the guardian again ?. Definitely not good for your health.

A civil servant.

26-2

Those are the rules they signed up to and we've learned that the EU are excellent negotiators.



All sounds democratic to me.

You say that threatening Italy is undemocratic.

However, they were not forced to be part of the EU and are more than happy to take the benefits.



Surely, on thet basis, they have to adhere to the rules.

You cant have a "common" currency and allow individual nations to go solo on their fisical policy.



There is some "wiggle" room but, their has to be some control.



Just imagine if the UK had signed up for the Euro ??

Blood in the streets. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... -the-crash https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5580360 Not the best photo Nigel.

Blood in the streets. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... -the-crash https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-st ... -1-5580360 Not the best photo Nigel.

Cracking riposte & defence of Tory policy.

Like Sepp Blatter and FIFA

Thanks, much appreciated. Can’t remember mentioning anything about Tory policy though.

Where do we stand on "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Clearly, Mrs May's efforts are viewed as a bad deal (it looks like she will lose the vote by 50/60 votes ?), therefore, should we go for the dreaded "no deal".

Labour are pretending that they could somehow gain a mythical good deal if they were in power and negotiating but this seems nothing more than fake news.

Therefore we have 3 options:



No deal

Bad deal

Remain in the EU



Even as a staunch remainer, I'm not happy with the though of a second referendum, it will just muddy the waters further and prolong the agony and uncertainty that we have endured for the last 2+ years (and we still haven't toughed the actual trade deal).



Although the Brexitiers, full of bravado say that we should "just get out" with no deal, there seems consensus on all sides that this will most likely throw us back into a recession or, very close to it and it looks to be the worst economic outcome (at least in the short/medium term).



So what next ?

No, it's indefensible.

Who knows?



Cameron really did let the genie out of the bottle didn't he?

May's deal is viewed as a 'bad deal' by anyone whose personal view of Brexit doesn't quite match, and who is not willing to show any compromise. Oh look, politicians.



Labour are so full of shieete it's untrue. They 'respect' Brexit. They won't back the deal, which will most likely drive us to no deal. They want a General Election. They think they can somehow drive a harder bargain with the EU. I've never wanted to punch a politician so much as listening to John McDonald over the last few days. The lies spewing forth are dizzying.



Could you imagine if Diane Abbott was on the negotiating team? [i"We propose reducing tariffs on these items to 2.5%...erm Jeremy what's a percent?"[/i









It's no deal or this deal. That much has been made clear. Yes, theoretically you could cancel Article 50 but no government would risk that, they'd be out of office quicker can you could say "Merkel you stupid munter".





Edited for accuracy. Getting out with no arrangement is idiotic. As I've said for years now, a reasonable deal is the best bet, allowing us to extricate ourselves from the EU and still work and trade with them.



Which is why we should all be very concerned right now. Politicians across the spectrum have abandoned their promises to 'respect' anything - they're too busy looking for opportunity in the chaos, and doing their best to bring down the government - and they don't care if we get a deal or not in the process as long as they come out of it smelling of roses. Wigan's omnipresent TV MP Lisa Nandy is a prime example.

The biggest problem in this whole process has been the quality of the negotiating on our side - shambolic at best incompetent at worst.



The EU were never going to maintain the status quo and us not pay in but to have a deal whereby the EU decide when we can leave is a deal no one should back unless you don't actually want to leave e.g. the majority of MPs, Wrencat, Tigertot etc.

WRONG





The biggest problem is just how little thought went into a "leave" result after the referendum, leaving us flapping about like the proverbial fish out of water and thus, weakening our position when entering negotiations and our inability to gain very much from those negotiationa (and teh trade deal is still to come)



Also, despite the referendum result, most MP's are strill "remaines" at heart and they just dont seem comfortable leaving the EU, making negotiating an almost impossible task, just as it would have nbeen for Labour.

Having said that, Labour, had they been in power, wouldnt have had to pander to Farage & co in the first place.



The Tory elite have cause the mess, followed dutifully by the masses who voted leave (the irony is just pitiful) and although the EU may end up with a slifghtly looser grip on the UK, we will still be largely dancing to their tune, whilst pretending that we have control.

Immigration from outside the EU is already growing, making the pre referendum rhetoric a total nonsense.

Given the tailspin the Tories are in, that's quite the hot take; you have a PM doggedly ploughing on with a "deal" that nobody supports, warring factions of the party appearing on TV to brief against each other, and various incompetent buffoons talking openly about being the next leader - including the unconscionably vile Esther McVey; and in the middle of all that, news broke this weekend that the Government has paid 2 million quid of public money to a fake charity, to manufacture and spread smears and lies about the leader of the HM opposition. Oh and lets not forget being the first Government in UK history to be found in contempt of Parliament...



But in the middle of all that, it's important to remember that Diane Abbot once got some numbers wrong on the telly, you don't find Angela Merkel attractive, and that Lisa Nandy is on telly a lot; smells like desperation to me - can you see it all falling apart?

Although I agree with you that the strong & stable Tories are pathetic, the biggest problem is that, apart from xenophobia & racism, most people didn't know what they were voting for (or what they would get).

Have you got one of them fancy tellies that blanks out the faces & words spewing forth from Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, David Cameron, George Osborne, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Mark Francois, Esther McVey, etc etc (does that cover the ones who boasted about hanging & knifing their leader?) plus the medieval fascists in NI?

Although I would put all of those politicians on the "hit (punch)" list, Corbyn and McDonald should be on there with them.

These two are bothered about nothing, apart from getting a shot at the "big time".



You would be hard pressed to find out any of Labours shadow cabinets views on brexit as they just sway with the political breeze, waiting for their chance in a general election and when their time does come (if it comes), we may find out where they actually stand on the issue.



Had Corbyn had the balls to say what his views were during the referendum campaign, we may not have ended up in the current mess, although he wouldn't have been quite as close to sitting in the big chair.





It does beg the question of many of our "top" politicians as to whether personal gain should be put in front of what is best for the country.

When you take a step back and view the debacle as a whole, it's a thing of wonder to behold. There's a lunatic fringe who are pushing for an absolute train wreck, not just a minor collision, but a total catastrophic derailment. And there's a small bunch of headbangers who are advocating the ensuing carnage. The rest are squabbling among themselves as to whether we should be in or out, and in turn, are trying to agree on a slightly more acceptable level of chaos.

Strong & stable.

So, last week we had the first Government ever to be in contempt of Parliament, now the meaningful vote pulled at the eleventh hour.



What a shambolic state of affairs the Tories have inflicted on the country -



The mother of Parliaments, what a crock.

Are you sure 'nobody' supports it? Plenty seem to, probably as many as support any other single faction. The real problem is for all those adopting a reasonable stance of "it's not perfect but it'll do", is that you're up against every other argument:

- hard Remainers

- People's Voters

- hard Brexiteers

- hard anti-Tories

- Labour's priority of pushing a General Election

...and everyone else along the scale somewhere inbetween playing their own political games. So it's likely ANY deal will get voted down. Which ever way you stack it the numbers add up to a messy exit. The same would be true of any government in the same situation.



May has taken the only option and it's not actually a bad idea. Her main opponents are saying they can't vote for the deal unless the backstop and a few other guarantees are renegotiated. So she goes to the EU and asks the questions. If the EU agrees, those opponents now have to honour their word, and if the EU says no it's clear there simply is no other deal. Remain isn't going to happen so it's May's deal or over the edge we go. By going back to the EU she either comes out with a better deal or having called everyone's bluff.



The EU, btw, who all along have said they will not renegotiate - and immediately reiterated that today several times over.







Lighten up, just a bit of fun.





But saying that I'll never back down on Abbott. The idea she could end up in government is truly terrifying.

You have no idea how reassuring it is to realise that other people can see this, especially those of a left-wing persuasion (Labour voter? - I'm not sure).



If Corbyn had been truly honest during the referendum we'd be out, no ifs and no buts, with a Labour vote in support. He's never been a lover of the EU but as you say, he prefers opportunities to score political points, and he couldn't risk alienating his reinvigorated youth vote.



I almost pitied Barry Gardiner last night, he was clearly under strict instruction to turn the debate into a Labour party political broadcast and a push for a General Election. Unfortunately for him most could see through it and he instead he just looked oddly like a sweaty Ricky Gervais.

Why would I pay particular attention to them?