Butcher wrote:I'll try my best! But are you saying Toulouse won't work in Super League because it's also a big place? Very different proposition to London for loads of reasons, though I won't muddy the waters with that now.
York only has 3 amateur clubs - Acorn, New Earswick, Heworth, plus Wetherby Bulldogs who you could argue are in their catchment. Salford has fewer - Roosters, Cadishead, and Langworthy (juniors only). York has a schools programme that runs sessions with 3,000 kids, which is impressive, but they're not playing regularly in teams as I understand it. Salford runs something in partnership with Sky which apparently reaches 4,000 kids.
Don't want to split hairs, but I didn't say Toulouse's scene is excellent, just that it's bigger than Salford or York's. Underpinning it is an amateur/semi-pro side called Toulouse Broncos who play in the Super XIII (formerly Elite 1) with junior sides at every age group. Their open age acts as a feeder to Toulouse Olympique. Then there's Pamiers, Toulouse Jules Julien, Grantentour, Realmont, and St Gaudens. They also have a substantial schools programme (one of my mates used to play for the Broncos and coach kids during the week - he's now head coach at RC Salon). I don't know exactly how many kids they reach, but it's regular competitive games.
I don't know what to say about their attendances - I can only go off the stats and the fact I've been there when they've reported crowds of 5,000 and it seemed there were about 5,000 there. They got bigger crowds than Salford while in SL (about 5,000 average), and they get bigger crowds than York in the Championship. But again the key word is potential.
As for commercial potential, it's simply that there are thousands of companies in Toulouse, 300 of which already sponsor the club. That includes broadcasters, which could eventually replace their allocation from the Sky money. Catalans haven't managed that, but Toulouse is more likely to. They're also one of the few clubs in the pyramid that runs mostly on sponsorship rather than an owner. Good article here: https://www.totalrl.com/toulouse-olympi ... new-owner/
I do want to keep perspective here though. I'm not saying Toulouse is a silver bullet or that thousands of fans are banging at the door trying to get into the stadium. Just simply that 1) They outperform Salford and York in so many areas, as reflected in the gradings and 2) They have more potential to succeed than the others. And that's why I'd be happy with Toulouse becoming the 12th highest-graded team and taking Salford's place while the latter rebuilds sustainably.
Just one point missing a French RU City
Butcher wrote:I'll try my best! But are you saying Toulouse won't work in Super League because it's also a big place? Very different proposition to London for loads of reasons, though I won't muddy the waters with that now.
York only has 3 amateur clubs - Acorn, New Earswick, Heworth, plus Wetherby Bulldogs who you could argue are in their catchment. Salford has fewer - Roosters, Cadishead, and Langworthy (juniors only). York has a schools programme that runs sessions with 3,000 kids, which is impressive, but they're not playing regularly in teams as I understand it. Salford runs something in partnership with Sky which apparently reaches 4,000 kids.
Don't want to split hairs, but I didn't say Toulouse's scene is excellent, just that it's bigger than Salford or York's. Underpinning it is an amateur/semi-pro side called Toulouse Broncos who play in the Super XIII (formerly Elite 1) with junior sides at every age group. Their open age acts as a feeder to Toulouse Olympique. Then there's Pamiers, Toulouse Jules Julien, Grantentour, Realmont, and St Gaudens. They also have a substantial schools programme (one of my mates used to play for the Broncos and coach kids during the week - he's now head coach at RC Salon). I don't know exactly how many kids they reach, but it's regular competitive games.
I don't know what to say about their attendances - I can only go off the stats and the fact I've been there when they've reported crowds of 5,000 and it seemed there were about 5,000 there. They got bigger crowds than Salford while in SL (about 5,000 average), and they get bigger crowds than York in the Championship. But again the key word is potential.
As for commercial potential, it's simply that there are thousands of companies in Toulouse, 300 of which already sponsor the club. That includes broadcasters, which could eventually replace their allocation from the Sky money. Catalans haven't managed that, but Toulouse is more likely to. They're also one of the few clubs in the pyramid that runs mostly on sponsorship rather than an owner. Good article here: https://www.totalrl.com/toulouse-olympi ... new-owner/
I do want to keep perspective here though. I'm not saying Toulouse is a silver bullet or that thousands of fans are banging at the door trying to get into the stadium. Just simply that 1) They outperform Salford and York in so many areas, as reflected in the gradings and 2) They have more potential to succeed than the others. And that's why I'd be happy with Toulouse becoming the 12th highest-graded team and taking Salford's place while the latter rebuilds sustainably.
Joined: Oct 04 2008 Posts: 21309 Location: wakefield
REDWHITEANDBLUE wrote:Just one point missing a French RU City
That's the same for everywhere Rugby League is played in France. Union is dominant and League is played in the wider area around Toulouse. It's exactly the right place for Rugby League.
A dog is not considered a good dog because he is a good barker. A man is not considered a good man because he is a good talker - Buddha
Butcher wrote:I'll try my best! But are you saying Toulouse won't work in Super League because it's also a big place? Very different proposition to London for loads of reasons, though I won't muddy the waters with that now.
York only has 3 amateur clubs - Acorn, New Earswick, Heworth, plus Wetherby Bulldogs who you could argue are in their catchment. Salford has fewer - Roosters, Cadishead, and Langworthy (juniors only). York has a schools programme that runs sessions with 3,000 kids, which is impressive, but they're not playing regularly in teams as I understand it. Salford runs something in partnership with Sky which apparently reaches 4,000 kids.
Don't want to split hairs, but I didn't say Toulouse's scene is excellent, just that it's bigger than Salford or York's. Underpinning it is an amateur/semi-pro side called Toulouse Broncos who play in the Super XIII (formerly Elite 1) with junior sides at every age group. Their open age acts as a feeder to Toulouse Olympique. Then there's Pamiers, Toulouse Jules Julien, Grantentour, Ramonville, and Realmont. They also have a substantial schools programme (one of my mates used to play for the Broncos and coach kids during the week - he's now head coach at RC Salon). I don't know exactly how many kids they reach, but it's regular competitive games.
I don't know what to say about their attendances - I can only go off the stats and the fact I've been there when they've reported crowds of 5,000 and it seemed there were about 5,000 there. They got bigger crowds than Salford while in SL (about 5,000 average), and they get bigger crowds than York in the Championship. But again the key word is potential.
As for commercial potential, it's simply that there are thousands of companies in Toulouse, 300 of which already sponsor the club. That includes broadcasters, which could eventually replace their allocation from the Sky money. Catalans haven't managed that, but Toulouse is more likely to. They're also one of the few clubs in the pyramid that runs mostly on sponsorship rather than an owner. Good article here: https://www.totalrl.com/toulouse-olympi ... new-owner/
I do want to keep perspective here though. I'm not saying Toulouse is a silver bullet or that thousands of fans are banging at the door trying to get into the stadium. Just simply that 1) They outperform Salford and York in so many areas, as reflected in the gradings and 2) They have more potential to succeed than the others. And that's why I'd be happy with Toulouse becoming the 12th highest-graded team and taking Salford's place while the latter rebuilds sustainably.
Thanks for that reply. That’s opened my eyes some that there are certainly some pathways which Toulouse are associated with.
As for the same as London. It won’t be exactly the same but history shows with London that it takes far more than just having a club in a large city to have any benefits to the sport in terms of commercial/sponsorship or financial benefits.
Toulouse are slowly going backwards year on year on the pitch and with crowds. I get that the club had many more thousands on their year in SL but where did the multiple thousands go after a single season. I’m not convinced they would find it easy to get them back either.
Thought I don’t think Toulouse would be the best choice I am a big believer in the system. If they come out with the points that put them 12th then I will accept that they are good enough. I’m not so sure they will though with Bulls and York on their heels.
I understand what you’re saying about them outperforming the other clubs but there are a number of areas that there’s only a small difference like attendence, social media/fandom that bulls/ York are close. In terms of actual monitoring, they must be in very similar brackets in the img points pillars as their score isn’t much higher than the other top champ clubs.
Perhaps you’re right that they may have higher potential at SL level but if they do get their shot I feel they’ll have to hit the ground running to take advantage. Could say the same for others though.
Butcher wrote:I'll try my best! But are you saying Toulouse won't work in Super League because it's also a big place? Very different proposition to London for loads of reasons, though I won't muddy the waters with that now.
York only has 3 amateur clubs - Acorn, New Earswick, Heworth, plus Wetherby Bulldogs who you could argue are in their catchment. Salford has fewer - Roosters, Cadishead, and Langworthy (juniors only). York has a schools programme that runs sessions with 3,000 kids, which is impressive, but they're not playing regularly in teams as I understand it. Salford runs something in partnership with Sky which apparently reaches 4,000 kids.
Don't want to split hairs, but I didn't say Toulouse's scene is excellent, just that it's bigger than Salford or York's. Underpinning it is an amateur/semi-pro side called Toulouse Broncos who play in the Super XIII (formerly Elite 1) with junior sides at every age group. Their open age acts as a feeder to Toulouse Olympique. Then there's Pamiers, Toulouse Jules Julien, Grantentour, Ramonville, and Realmont. They also have a substantial schools programme (one of my mates used to play for the Broncos and coach kids during the week - he's now head coach at RC Salon). I don't know exactly how many kids they reach, but it's regular competitive games.
I don't know what to say about their attendances - I can only go off the stats and the fact I've been there when they've reported crowds of 5,000 and it seemed there were about 5,000 there. They got bigger crowds than Salford while in SL (about 5,000 average), and they get bigger crowds than York in the Championship. But again the key word is potential.
As for commercial potential, it's simply that there are thousands of companies in Toulouse, 300 of which already sponsor the club. That includes broadcasters, which could eventually replace their allocation from the Sky money. Catalans haven't managed that, but Toulouse is more likely to. They're also one of the few clubs in the pyramid that runs mostly on sponsorship rather than an owner. Good article here: https://www.totalrl.com/toulouse-olympi ... new-owner/
I do want to keep perspective here though. I'm not saying Toulouse is a silver bullet or that thousands of fans are banging at the door trying to get into the stadium. Just simply that 1) They outperform Salford and York in so many areas, as reflected in the gradings and 2) They have more potential to succeed than the others. And that's why I'd be happy with Toulouse becoming the 12th highest-graded team and taking Salford's place while the latter rebuilds sustainably.
Thanks for that reply. That’s opened my eyes some that there are certainly some pathways which Toulouse are associated with.
As for the same as London. It won’t be exactly the same but history shows with London that it takes far more than just having a club in a large city to have any benefits to the sport in terms of commercial/sponsorship or financial benefits.
Toulouse are slowly going backwards year on year on the pitch and with crowds. I get that the club had many more thousands on their year in SL but where did the multiple thousands go after a single season. I’m not convinced they would find it easy to get them back either.
Thought I don’t think Toulouse would be the best choice I am a big believer in the system. If they come out with the points that put them 12th then I will accept that they are good enough. I’m not so sure they will though with Bulls and York on their heels.
I understand what you’re saying about them outperforming the other clubs but there are a number of areas that there’s only a small difference like attendence, social media/fandom that bulls/ York are close. In terms of actual monitoring, they must be in very similar brackets in the img points pillars as their score isn’t much higher than the other top champ clubs.
Perhaps you’re right that they may have higher potential at SL level but if they do get their shot I feel they’ll have to hit the ground running to take advantage. Could say the same for others though.
Joined: Jan 24 2007 Posts: 6308 Location: Over there
The Salford fans on the Red Devils message board appear to be calling other clubs vultures for circling their players and acting selfishly by looking to bend the rules around cap and quota, but I'm not sure they see the reality that they have to offload to survive, and their has to be exemptions for the offloads, as other clubs have either got squads sorted or up to the cap.
The Salford board were on a hiding to nothing. Spend in accordance with their actual income and they don't have a competitive side. Spend in accordance with hopeful income and they have, except that the hope was based on local council decisions, which are always susceptible to delays and changes of heart, because of political shifts over budgets.
For me, Bradford being back in would be a boon. Okay, I hate Odsal, but it's a bona fide big club, the Rhinos derby is another big fixture, and they are an asset to the top flight, if run properly.
Toulouse is good for the French game, but adds little to the English game. Toulouse should be the target of expansion, and it should be based upon expanding the number of clubs, not by replacing another team with Toulouse. That was always the problem with licensing, in that it was based on exclusion, not inclusion, in that it wasn't based on your business case, but whether it was one of the top twelve business cases. The grading system will hopefully expand the game by increasing the club numbers to 14, and cut out the loop fixtures. One way to do that is by increasing the quota spots (or scrapping it altogether). There are some very NRL squad players who'll want to showcase themselves. The only stumbling block is clubs being willing to take a smaller share of the TV money.
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