The Phantom Horseman wrote:Surely this has been comprehensively debunked by what we are seeing with Salford - if you could actually judge a club's status by their grading, there's no way they would have been just a point away from a Grade A. The fact that London were able to soar from a basement grade of 8.07 in 2024 to a grade of 12.65 simply on the back of a year in SL with all its IMG-point benefits highlights that the grades hide as much as they show.
I don’t think so, personally. A point is a long way from Grade A. And now their finances have found to be rotten, they’ll get less points. You could argue it’s a few months too late, but you could argue that the obsession with avoiding relegation is what gets clubs in this mess in the first place.
homme vaste wrote:I think it`s pretty subjective on which clubs would make the competition `stronger` so I`m not sure it`s as simple as saying just look the IMG scores, although in practice I know that is how the system works, but this Salford situation just shows the system up really... York might have a screen to the right pixels, have some LED boards around the perimeter of there pitch but do they have the potential to average 15k fans with a decent team like Bradford could?
And I think the gradings are the closest thing you can get to objectivity. I think a strong club does have LED boards around the pitch, along with a competitive squad, solid finances, a funded marketing team, a community programme, good attendances, and pretty much everything that’s covered in the gradings. I think a strong club has other things that aren’t covered - like a productive academy - but it’s a good effort.
The LED boards (and directors seats) always get brought up as a rhetorical tactic to make the whole system seem trivial, but we all know it’s a tiny part of an overall grade of which attendance and performance - as you mention above - are a bigger part. As for York, yes, I don’t think they have the potential to get bigger crowds than Bradford, but they do have the potential to be a better team, and they arguably greater potential in other areas. Whereas Toulouse, who IMG ‘objectively’ see as the 13th strongest club, have greater potential in every single area.
Butcher wrote:And I think the gradings are the closest thing you can get to objectivity. I think a strong club does have LED boards around the pitch, along with a competitive squad, solid finances, a funded marketing team, a community programme, good attendances, and pretty much everything that’s covered in the gradings. I think a strong club has other things that aren’t covered - like a productive academy - but it’s a good effort.
The LED boards (and directors seats) always get brought up as a rhetorical tactic to make the whole system seem trivial, but we all know it’s a tiny part of an overall grade of which attendance and performance - as you mention above - are a bigger part. As for York, yes, I don’t think they have the potential to get bigger crowds than Bradford, but they do have the potential to be a better team, and they arguably greater potential in other areas. Whereas Toulouse, who IMG ‘objectively’ see as the 13th strongest club, have greater potential in every single area.
I agree with pretty much all that until the last part. Toulouse certainly don’t have greater potential in every area. Their crowds have been going in reverse, their team while good isn’t to the level of last years trinity or previously Leigh. They would be lucky to last 2 seasons in SL imo with crowds barely above 2k, the costs associated with logistics abs building a competitive team. Catalans manage it with a much higher attendence just about but even they’ve found it challenging in places.
Toulouse SL year drops off this year so they will lose points. I expect they’ll miss out and end up packing their bags for 2026.
I agree they haven’t been great on a few fronts this year. But the key word is potential. They’ve occasionally attracted crowds of 6,000 (9,000 against Catalans when their season was dead) and they’d return to that fairly quickly if admitted back in. But moreover it’s France’s fourth biggest city, more than a million people, with all the commercial opportunities that brings, and underpinned by a junior and amateur scene that’s much bigger than Salford or York’s.
Apologies for getting way off topic with this, just enjoying the debate.
Butcher wrote:I agree they haven’t been great on a few fronts this year. But the key word is potential. They’ve occasionally attracted crowds of 6,000 (9,000 against Catalans when their season was dead) and they’d return to that fairly quickly if admitted back in. But moreover it’s France’s fourth biggest city, more than a million people, with all the commercial opportunities that brings, and underpinned by a junior and amateur scene that’s much bigger than Salford or York’s.
Apologies for getting way off topic with this, just enjoying the debate.
Yeah pity that like Catalans they probably wouldn't bring any of their support with them. They should have their own SL - my opinion only.
And a fair opinion, that’s definitely the downside. Though I’m a believer (optimist more like) that clubs shouldn’t be relying on away support to fill their ground or their coffers. How good was the grand final? The fact there weren’t any Toulousains there didn’t spoil it for me.
Joined: Oct 04 2008 Posts: 21288 Location: wakefield
Butcher wrote:And a fair opinion, that’s definitely the downside. Though I’m a believer (optimist more like) that clubs shouldn’t be relying on away support to fill their ground or their coffers. How good was the grand final? The fact there weren’t any Toulousains there didn’t spoil it for me.
That is certainly something I agree with. The IMG targets are all about building a club to be self sustaining. That includes both Sky money and away support. They should be bonuses not your main strategy.
A dog is not considered a good dog because he is a good barker. A man is not considered a good man because he is a good talker - Buddha
Butcher wrote:I agree they haven’t been great on a few fronts this year. But the key word is potential. They’ve occasionally attracted crowds of 6,000 (9,000 against Catalans when their season was dead) and they’d return to that fairly quickly if admitted back in. But moreover it’s France’s fourth biggest city, more than a million people, with all the commercial opportunities that brings, and underpinned by a junior and amateur scene that’s much bigger than Salford or York’s.
Apologies for getting way off topic with this, just enjoying the debate.
So just as big as London then? Just like London it won’t work.
I would hazard a guess there’s far more juniors and amateurs including schools playing in Yorks demographic location that around Toulouse. There are no professional leagues afterall.
If you can give more detail on the excellent junior and amateur scene in Toulouse then I’d certainly be more encouraged.
This season a number of posts have been made suggesting that crowds appear to be higher than actual attendees at Toulouse.
As it stands they just barely get more than York and Fev etc.
I’ve no problem with you thinking Toulouse are this team that will bring in all this commercial benefit to the sport but I’d like to hear why you think that and what it’s based on. London didn’t bring a single zip of benefit commercially to the comp so I can’t see how Toulouse would be different.
I’m not saying your wrong by the way but I’m not convinced, maybe o just don’t know as much about the commercial benefits they gain in Toulouse and their youth links etc.
I'll try my best! But are you saying Toulouse won't work in Super League because it's also a big place? Very different proposition to London for loads of reasons, though I won't muddy the waters with that now.
York only has 3 amateur clubs - Acorn, New Earswick, Heworth, plus Wetherby Bulldogs who you could argue are in their catchment. Salford has fewer - Roosters, Cadishead, and Langworthy (juniors only). York has a schools programme that runs sessions with 3,000 kids, which is impressive, but they're not playing regularly in teams as I understand it. Salford runs something in partnership with Sky which apparently reaches 4,000 kids.
Don't want to split hairs, but I didn't say Toulouse's scene is excellent, just that it's bigger than Salford or York's. Underpinning it is an amateur/semi-pro side called Toulouse Broncos who play in the Super XIII (formerly Elite 1) with junior sides at every age group. Their open age acts as a feeder to Toulouse Olympique. Then there's Pamiers, Toulouse Jules Julien, Grantentour, Ramonville, and Realmont. They also have a substantial schools programme (one of my mates used to play for the Broncos and coach kids during the week - he's now head coach at RC Salon). I don't know exactly how many kids they reach, but it's regular competitive games.
I don't know what to say about their attendances - I can only go off the stats and the fact I've been there when they've reported crowds of 5,000 and it seemed there were about 5,000 there. They got bigger crowds than Salford while in SL (about 5,000 average), and they get bigger crowds than York in the Championship. But again the key word is potential.
As for commercial potential, it's simply that there are thousands of companies in Toulouse, 300 of which already sponsor the club. That includes broadcasters, which could eventually replace their allocation from the Sky money. Catalans haven't managed that, but Toulouse is more likely to. They're also one of the few clubs in the pyramid that runs mostly on sponsorship rather than an owner. Good article here: https://www.totalrl.com/toulouse-olympi ... new-owner/
I do want to keep perspective here though. I'm not saying Toulouse is a silver bullet or that thousands of fans are banging at the door trying to get into the stadium. Just simply that 1) They outperform Salford and York in so many areas, as reflected in the gradings and 2) They have more potential to succeed than the others. And that's why I'd be happy with Toulouse becoming the 12th highest-graded team and taking Salford's place while the latter rebuilds sustainably.
I'll try my best! But are you saying Toulouse won't work in Super League because it's also a big place? Very different proposition to London for loads of reasons, though I won't muddy the waters with that now.
York only has 3 amateur clubs - Acorn, New Earswick, Heworth, plus Wetherby Bulldogs who you could argue are in their catchment. Salford has fewer - Roosters, Cadishead, and Langworthy (juniors only). York has a schools programme that runs sessions with 3,000 kids, which is impressive, but they're not playing regularly in teams as I understand it. Salford runs something in partnership with Sky which apparently reaches 4,000 kids.
Don't want to split hairs, but I didn't say Toulouse's scene is excellent, just that it's bigger than Salford or York's. Underpinning it is an amateur/semi-pro side called Toulouse Broncos who play in the Super XIII (formerly Elite 1) with junior sides at every age group. Their open age acts as a feeder to Toulouse Olympique. Then there's Pamiers, Toulouse Jules Julien, Grantentour, Ramonville, and Realmont. They also have a substantial schools programme (one of my mates used to play for the Broncos and coach kids during the week - he's now head coach at RC Salon). I don't know exactly how many kids they reach, but it's regular competitive games.
I don't know what to say about their attendances - I can only go off the stats and the fact I've been there when they've reported crowds of 5,000 and it seemed there were about 5,000 there. They got bigger crowds than Salford while in SL (about 5,000 average), and they get bigger crowds than York in the Championship. But again the key word is potential.
As for commercial potential, it's simply that there are thousands of companies in Toulouse, 300 of which already sponsor the club. That includes broadcasters, which could eventually replace their allocation from the Sky money. Catalans haven't managed that, but Toulouse is more likely to. They're also one of the few clubs in the pyramid that runs mostly on sponsorship rather than an owner. Good article here: https://www.totalrl.com/toulouse-olympi ... new-owner/
I do want to keep perspective here though. I'm not saying Toulouse is a silver bullet or that thousands of fans are banging at the door trying to get into the stadium. Just simply that 1) They outperform Salford and York in so many areas, as reflected in the gradings and 2) They have more potential to succeed than the others. And that's why I'd be happy with Toulouse becoming the 12th highest-graded team and taking Salford's place while the latter rebuilds sustainably.
Last edited by Butcher on Sat Jan 18, 2025 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
