Thing is if the club is rotten top to bottom a) then how do you explain the good results this year e.g. the Saints and Wigan games earlier season? Was everyone amazing then because we were winning? b) if there is a problem then the only common denominator is Hetherington I’m afraid.

Lost the dressing room? I don’t think so although these hammerings drive people apart obviously.

I’m not sure anyone on this forum really has an inside angle on the camp to know what we’re talking about.

Also as we’re discussing youth matts, who are you thinking we could see break through over the next year or two? I’ve given up predicting I usually can’t pick them.

There were 11 first choice players and a couple of experienced squad members e.g. Donaldson out there - the spine had 40% of its first choice line up. The performances the last two weeks suggest this is a cultural issue.

The wins against Wigan and Saints were clearly one offs - Saints on the back of the WCC and Wigan having a off day - it happens.

The players haven't seemed interested the past two weeks - when they had a chance of making the play offs - why is that?

No one on here is close to squad to know what is going on - the performance have been so poor they can't but lead to discussion and speculation.

If Leeds are in for Sam Powell ten something is very seriously wrong with player evaluation and the needs of the squad. What the club needs is more pace not less.

"lot of kids out there" and as the saying goes "You'll never win ow't with kids"

Our 2004 Grand Final winning squad v Bradford Bulls contained no fewer than 10 home grown players that were all aged between 21 and 24 and i'm sure that none of these players will have been on anywhere near the salaries that they eventually received a couple of seasons down the line.
Richie Mathers (21)
Mark Calderwood (23)
Chev Walker (22)
Kevin Sinfield (23)
Danny McGuire (22)
Danny Ward (24)
Matt Diskin (23)
Ryan Bailey (21)
Rob Burrow (21)
JJB (23)

Our key 1,6,7 and 9 spine positions were all filled by these home grown young kids.

The squad was complemented by some very astute signings from other SL clubs and from overseas.
Keith Senior, Marcus Bai, Chris McKenna, Ali Lauitiiti, Dave Furner, Willie Poching & Barry McDermott

This is what the club urgently need to get back to doing very well if we want to finally bring an end to this current 8 year transitional period, which has been an absolute shambles.

Agree that development of young players is the answer. Just look at Saints. But I'm not sure if SL clubs can attract the kind of talent from the NRL that we managed in 2004. Even then we only managed to sign Lauitiiti because he was unsettled. Right now the competition to sign the best English talent is much harder than before. We can't keep attracting the likes of Ellis and Senior from the traditional 'lower clubs'; in fact, that's what Leeds have become since 2017.

Stick Keith Senior, Marcus Bai, Chris McKenna, Ali Lauitiiti, Dave Furner, Willie Poching & Barry McDermott into Saturday's side and I think it would hav ebeen a very different outcome.

I agree on Powell although I can see Leeds being keen to bring “experience” in.

You can’t say two big wins with great performances are one offs, and then two horrible defeats when half a team is missing is the standard, that’s just not logical. The teams taking the field at the different times were very different, the coach is the same… you will all draw your own conclusions.

Agree with this.

Zoo Zoo, I hope you're not an accountant! The spine had 25% of its first choice lineup. Only one player, O'Connor out of four would be first choice. In any event the "%" is less important than the experience/ability of those we had. That was Hooley's 7th SL game. Sinfield's 10th and he clearly isn't ready for SL. Martin isn't even a halfback.

Even that doesn't really tell the story. Put any one of them in Sts team for one of Welsby/Dodd/Lomax and they'd probably look above average. Put all three in Sts team and I'm pretty sure Sts would look bang average on attack, regardless of what "structure" Sts are coached to, because as a unit they aren't even Championship standard if we're honest. They did OK against a Hull team that is probably as keen for the season to be over as we are, but Wigan and Cats are gearing up for the play offs. I suspect we'll get beaten quite easily by Cas as well, as even if our forwards put in a shift (which they clearly did not against Cats) we just don't have many points in us if they defend with determination.

The only way we can compete with the spine we have is by being as physical as possible and trying to keep errors low. There won't be much in the way of flowing moves because we don't have the players to do it. Sadly the forwards haven't been willing to get stuck in as a unit, and our threequarters tend to make bad decisions as well.

I think I’d go:

Hooley
Fus, Newman, J Smith, Handley
F McCormack, Sinfield
Mik, Johnson, Holroyd
McDonnell, Martin
C Smith

Walters, Lisone, O’Connor, Donaldson

Depending on who is fit. If we were a car tyre we would be illegal. I would run with everyone in their favoured positions as much as possible.