FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  

Home The Sin Bin US Presidential election 2020



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 521 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:37 am 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Jun 01 2007
Posts: 12647
Location: Leicestershire.
I found this article from September last year interesting and persuasive. With hindsight, also prophetic, regarding the aftermath of the US election.

https://www.noemamag.com/welcome-to-the ... -twenties/

I think the historical examples of the Corn Laws-Peterloo-Whig reform and FDR’s New Deal are powerful because they will evoke positive responses across the political spectrum. I think the point about some liberal priorities being important (to liberals at least) and legitimate, but not really offering a solution to the underlying problems is fair. Not that you can’t have both greater social justice and economic reforms, but we do have to talk about both to get there.
I found this article from September last year interesting and persuasive. With hindsight, also prophetic, regarding the aftermath of the US election.

https://www.noemamag.com/welcome-to-the ... -twenties/

I think the historical examples of the Corn Laws-Peterloo-Whig reform and FDR’s New Deal are powerful because they will evoke positive responses across the political spectrum. I think the point about some liberal priorities being important (to liberals at least) and legitimate, but not really offering a solution to the underlying problems is fair. Not that you can’t have both greater social justice and economic reforms, but we do have to talk about both to get there.






'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:36 am 
First Team Player
First Team Player

Joined: Dec 11 2020
Posts: 1102
The Ghost of '99 wrote:Canadian cities are as densely populated as British cities. And the vast majority of Canadians - 80%+ live in those big cities.

They have a great, vast country. But nobody is living in most of it. Population density over an entire country is irrelevant.


There are vast distances between these cities: Toronto to Montreal is c350 miles, Toronto to Vancouver c2,700 miles so infection can be contained a lot more easily in large communities with plenty of distance between large conurbations rather than England where there are very small distances between concentrated conurbations?

How do you explain why Belgium has had such a bad time of it - population is c1,000 sq mile - there has to be a correlation?

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:01 pm 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: May 07 2007
Posts: 12488
Location: Durham
Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:There are vast distances between these cities: Toronto to Montreal is c350 miles, Toronto to Vancouver c2,700 miles so infection can be contained a lot more easily in large communities with plenty of distance between large conurbations rather than England where there are very small distances between concentrated conurbations?

How do you explain why Belgium has had such a bad time of it - population is c1,000 sq mile - there has to be a correlation?


My 14 year old son has a better understanding than you seem to



density in South Korea is 1,366 people per mile yet they have not had a bad a time as the UK plus being closer to China and with more links to the pandemic starting.

In Brazil it is 68.57 per mile but they have a huge number of deaths


That above should suggest that Other factors other than population density comes into it. One of the key factors in determine how bad Covid has struck has been political decisions on how best to deal with it ( although there are many other factors )

But in the top 10 worst affected countries the correlation between Covid is who is running the country ie politicians who denying it, refusing lockdowns, promoting herd immunity , effective dictatorships etc are big factors ie Brazil bolsonaro, Us Trump, Uk Boris, Russia Putin etc etc


Yes Canada may have big differences in distance between cities and maybe 200 years ago before people had Aeroplanes or Trains or Cars that might have made a difference BUT now people travel large distances very quickly . They don’t just travel on dog sled and horses . If you are in a pub in a big city in Belgium or Canada the virus spreads the same way






Huddersfield Giants 2013 over achievers

Huddersfield Giants 2014 under achievers ??????????

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:11 pm 
Player Coach
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2006
Posts: 3092
Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:There are vast distances between these cities: Toronto to Montreal is c350 miles, Toronto to Vancouver c2,700 miles so infection can be contained a lot more easily in large communities with plenty of distance between large conurbations rather than England where there are very small distances between concentrated conurbations?

How do you explain why Belgium has had such a bad time of it - population is c1,000 sq mile - there has to be a correlation?
I don't have anything to add to what DG says.
I don't understand why you can't get your head around what aren't terribly complicated concepts. Of course there is a correlation between how tightly packed people are at a very, very localised level - i.e. inside a supermarket or a pub. But that simply doesn't translate upwards to population density over a city, let alone a county/state or country. There are far more important variables than that random metric.






"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:12 pm 
First Team Player
First Team Player

Joined: Dec 11 2020
Posts: 1102
Durham Giant wrote:My 14 year old son has a better understanding than you seem to



density in South Korea is 1,366 people per mile yet they have not had a bad a time as the UK plus being closer to China and with more links to the pandemic starting.

In Brazil it is 68.57 per mile but they have a huge number of deaths


That above should suggest that Other factors other than population density comes into it. One of the key factors in determine how bad Covid has struck has been political decisions on how best to deal with it ( although there are many other factors )

But in the top 10 worst affected countries the correlation between Covid is who is running the country ie politicians who denying it, refusing lockdowns, promoting herd immunity , effective dictatorships etc are big factors ie Brazil bolsonaro, Us Trump, Uk Boris, Russia Putin etc etc


Yes Canada may have big differences in distance between cities and maybe 200 years ago before people had Aeroplanes or Trains or Cars that might have made a difference BUT now people travel large distances very quickly . They don’t just travel on dog sled and horses . If you are in a pub in a big city in Belgium or Canada the virus spreads the same way


I didn't say population density was the only cause but it will have been a contributory factor. Whilst you might get movement of people it will not be as prevalent as say movement between Leeds and Manchester - easy to go 30 miles in a car not so easy to do 300 or 2,000 Ottawa to Edmonton? Are you saying it is all political decisions that caused such a bad outcome?

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:14 pm 
First Team Player
First Team Player

Joined: Dec 11 2020
Posts: 1102
The Ghost of '99 wrote:I don't have anything to add to what DG says.
I don't understand why you can't get your head around what aren't terribly complicated concepts. Of course there is a correlation between how tightly packed people are at a very, very localised level - i.e. inside a supermarket or a pub. But that simply doesn't translate upwards to population density over a city, let alone a county/state or country. There are far more important variables than that random metric.


How do you explain the huge increases in York and Harrogate - Mr. know-it-all?

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:33 pm 
First Team Player
Academy Player

Joined: Sep 14 2020
Posts: 381
Zoo Zoo Boom wrote:How do you explain the huge increases in York and Harrogate - Mr. know-it-all?

The more people are tested, the more cases there will be.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:55 pm 
First Team Player
First Team Player

Joined: Dec 11 2020
Posts: 1102
WestEndThinker wrote:The more people are tested, the more cases there will be.


So you are saying the cases were the same/thousand but not showing any symptoms - but all of a sudden they all started showing symptoms and the rate when up - are you for real?

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:41 pm 
Player Coach
International Star
User avatar

Joined: May 25 2006
Posts: 8893
Location: Garth's Darkplace.
Durham Giant wrote:My 14 year old son has a better understanding than you seem to



density in South Korea is 1,366 people per mile yet they have not had a bad a time as the UK plus being closer to China and with more links to the pandemic starting.

In Brazil it is 68.57 per mile but they have a huge number of deaths


That above should suggest that Other factors other than population density comes into it. One of the key factors in determine how bad Covid has struck has been political decisions on how best to deal with it ( although there are many other factors )

But in the top 10 worst affected countries the correlation between Covid is who is running the country ie politicians who denying it, refusing lockdowns, promoting herd immunity , effective dictatorships etc are big factors ie Brazil bolsonaro, Us Trump, Uk Boris, Russia Putin etc etc


Yes Canada may have big differences in distance between cities and maybe 200 years ago before people had Aeroplanes or Trains or Cars that might have made a difference BUT now people travel large distances very quickly . They don’t just travel on dog sled and horses . If you are in a pub in a big city in Belgium or Canada the virus spreads the same way


Indeed. A lot of "amateur epidemiologists" have been giving us the benefit of their opinion on daytime TV recently, including talking about "just shielding the over 80's as they are the only ones dying and letting the rest of us live normally" . Well, look at the numbers - around 50% of all deaths are in the 40-80 age bracket. No suggestions on how you would do that obviously.
There is absolutely no doubt that countries who have acted to initially effect a strong lockdown, and followed that with quarantine procedures to prevent re-entrance of infection and swift, decisive action when infection re-appears are currently way better off than those who have dragged their feet every time measures are needed.

I get it. People are really suffering now, both with and without the disease and wishing there was a better way. I do think that had this disease been awkward and a vaccine was going to take much longer then we would be faced with some very tough decisions and strategy may have been different. You must get business (small business's in particular) and the economy working again at some point or we all suffer more (eventually). But it happens that Covid 19 is not a particularly difficult one to create a vaccine for (it's all relative of course). I have heard it described by the people who first characterized it in the West as "clumsy". I have known since about June that we would have a vaccine deployed around end of November - beginning of December. In fact if the FDA hadn't been so worried about US public opinion on vaccines the AZ vaccine would have been with us before the Pfizer vaccine. If I knew that then the government knew that, so that's had a big bearing on strategy so far.

There will be other global pandemics of this nature, it's inevitable, but if we do not learn the lessons of what worked and what didn't and if we listen to those who think there is a radical approach that we didn't try that would have worked brilliantly (herd immunity, selective shielding etc) then we will have a disaster of even greater proportions than we have now. This isn't the first pandemic we've had and it's not the first highly infectious disease to spread through a region of the world. There are people who study this stuff and are "experts" in what works and what doesn't. We should listen to them.






"Well, I think in Rugby League if you head butt someone there's normally some repercusions"

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: US Presidential election 2020
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:26 pm 
First Team Player
First Team Player

Joined: Dec 11 2020
Posts: 1102
DHM wrote:Indeed. A lot of "amateur epidemiologists" have been giving us the benefit of their opinion on daytime TV recently, including talking about "just shielding the over 80's as they are the only ones dying and letting the rest of us live normally" . Well, look at the numbers - around 50% of all deaths are in the 40-80 age bracket. No suggestions on how you would do that obviously.
There is absolutely no doubt that countries who have acted to initially effect a strong lockdown, and followed that with quarantine procedures to prevent re-entrance of infection and swift, decisive action when infection re-appears are currently way better off than those who have dragged their feet every time measures are needed.

I get it. People are really suffering now, both with and without the disease and wishing there was a better way. I do think that had this disease been awkward and a vaccine was going to take much longer then we would be faced with some very tough decisions and strategy may have been different. You must get business (small business's in particular) and the economy working again at some point or we all suffer more (eventually). But it happens that Covid 19 is not a particularly difficult one to create a vaccine for (it's all relative of course). I have heard it described by the people who first characterized it in the West as "clumsy". I have known since about June that we would have a vaccine deployed around end of November - beginning of December. In fact if the FDA hadn't been so worried about US public opinion on vaccines the AZ vaccine would have been with us before the Pfizer vaccine. If I knew that then the government knew that, so that's had a big bearing on strategy so far.

There will be other global pandemics of this nature, it's inevitable, but if we do not learn the lessons of what worked and what didn't and if we listen to those who think there is a radical approach that we didn't try that would have worked brilliantly (herd immunity, selective shielding etc) then we will have a disaster of even greater proportions than we have now. This isn't the first pandemic we've had and it's not the first highly infectious disease to spread through a region of the world. There are people who study this stuff and are "experts" in what works and what doesn't. We should listen to them.


An interesting post - this issue is so many experts with very differing opinions - who is right? Ferguson is an interesting expert - never got a prediction even close.

You quote 50% between - my understanding is 80%+ of the death are occurring in the over 75's

Are we saying those that have had the virus also have a degree of protection - we have c3.5m positive cases so if you add that to the 4m already vaccinated that should give c8m with a degree of protection. If the current continues at c40k a day you will have c5m positives plus 16.5m vaccinated that is c22m if you take off the c10m under 15's you should have 40% of the population with some form of protection by mid Feb?

The problem is now even with a vaccine there doesn't seem to be clarity about what they can achieve - do they stop the spread - doesn't appear so - does it stop people getting ill - doesn't appear so - it will prevent the most vulnerable from death if they get it. Does this really offer a way back to normality? I will definitely have the jab I am not in denial.

The government keep changing the goal posts about removing restrictions - first it was R number, then it was pressure on the NHS, then it was number of infections, then was the vaccine role out - there is surely a limit as to how long this can continue without the medicine being worse than the illness? What are the chances of schools going back before Easter?

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 521 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53  Next





It is currently Thu Dec 12, 2024 1:23 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Thu Dec 12, 2024 1:23 pm
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
14m
Film game
Boss Hog
6180
24m
Pre-season
FGB
6
26m
Rumours thread
Trojan Horse
2530
31m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Huddersfield
4101
43m
Recruitment rumours and links
just_browny
3597
51m
Rumours and signings v9
NickyKiss
28943
Recent
Takeover
Irregular Ho
22
Recent
Transfer chatter for 2025 - New Dec 1st tamper date
Theeaststand
58
Recent
Transfer Talk V5
Jack Burton
569
Recent
Shareholder/Fans Forum
alegend
35
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40890
1m
Super League
FIL
36
2m
Leeds away first up
Another Cas
84
2m
Film game
Boss Hog
6180
2m
Merry Christmas
orangeman
11
2m
Takeover
Irregular Ho
22
4m
Pre-season
FGB
6
7m
NRL Expansion
Zig
1
12m
Hopes and Dreams for a New Season
J7P1
6
18m
Doug Laughton
Once were Lo
15
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
NRL Expansion
Zig
1
TODAY
Pre-season
FGB
6
TODAY
Josh Thewlis extents deal
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Takeover
Irregular Ho
22
TODAY
RIP Syd Hynes
Clearwing
6
TODAY
Small squad numbers
Chesterrhino
7
TODAY
Hopes and Dreams for a New Season
J7P1
6
TODAY
Open Trials
Torbreck
8
TODAY
Shareholder/Fans Forum
alegend
35
TODAY
Elliot Michella extends contract
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Christmas Party Night B Vue tonight cancelled
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Doug Laughton
Once were Lo
15
TODAY
Sports Personality of the Year
rubber ducki
17
TODAY
Forget-me-not Childrens hospice
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
All time academy produced Super league era side
rollin thund
5
TODAY
Wigan warriors 2022 away shirt
WWste
4
TODAY
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
Huddersfield
5
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Captains Challenge for Televis..
371
England Women Las Vegas train-..
532
Opening Championship and Leagu..
706
2025 Betfred Super League Fixt..
2000
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To N..
1097
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1752
England's Women Demolish The W..
1619
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1842
Operational Rules Tribunal â..
1565
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1796
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
2354
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
2555
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2792
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
2347
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2593
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds - Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield - Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Fri 28th Feb
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Hull FC
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Salford
SL
20:00
Leigh-Catalans
Sat 1st Mar
SL
14:30
Wakefield - St.Helens
SL
21:30
Wigan-Warrington
Sun 2nd Mar
SL
15:00
Leeds-Castleford
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
14m
Film game
Boss Hog
6180
24m
Pre-season
FGB
6
26m
Rumours thread
Trojan Horse
2530
31m
DoR - New Coach - Investor & Adam - New signings
Huddersfield
4101
43m
Recruitment rumours and links
just_browny
3597
51m
Rumours and signings v9
NickyKiss
28943
Recent
Takeover
Irregular Ho
22
Recent
Transfer chatter for 2025 - New Dec 1st tamper date
Theeaststand
58
Recent
Transfer Talk V5
Jack Burton
569
Recent
Shareholder/Fans Forum
alegend
35
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40890
1m
Super League
FIL
36
2m
Leeds away first up
Another Cas
84
2m
Film game
Boss Hog
6180
2m
Merry Christmas
orangeman
11
2m
Takeover
Irregular Ho
22
4m
Pre-season
FGB
6
7m
NRL Expansion
Zig
1
12m
Hopes and Dreams for a New Season
J7P1
6
18m
Doug Laughton
Once were Lo
15
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
NRL Expansion
Zig
1
TODAY
Pre-season
FGB
6
TODAY
Josh Thewlis extents deal
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Takeover
Irregular Ho
22
TODAY
RIP Syd Hynes
Clearwing
6
TODAY
Small squad numbers
Chesterrhino
7
TODAY
Hopes and Dreams for a New Season
J7P1
6
TODAY
Open Trials
Torbreck
8
TODAY
Shareholder/Fans Forum
alegend
35
TODAY
Elliot Michella extends contract
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Christmas Party Night B Vue tonight cancelled
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Doug Laughton
Once were Lo
15
TODAY
Sports Personality of the Year
rubber ducki
17
TODAY
Forget-me-not Childrens hospice
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
All time academy produced Super league era side
rollin thund
5
TODAY
Wigan warriors 2022 away shirt
WWste
4
TODAY
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
Huddersfield
5
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Captains Challenge for Televis..
371
England Women Las Vegas train-..
532
Opening Championship and Leagu..
706
2025 Betfred Super League Fixt..
2000
Magic Weekend 2025 - Back To N..
1097
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1752
England's Women Demolish The W..
1619
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1842
Operational Rules Tribunal â..
1565
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1796
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
2354
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
2555
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2792
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
2347
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2593


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.