Mrs Barista wrote:Why waste development cash when we can attract Dream Team international players?
Despite efforts on both sides of sorts, not many genuine Hull born stars in the last few years.
Again you are correct that both sides efforts havnt resulted in enough players coming through our systems.
Maybe your view is the right one that we shouldn't waste money on trying to develop youngsters in our city. I certainly know people with your beliefs so you aren't on your own. Speaking personally I watch a heck of a lot more of local junior rugby than I do Hull or Rovers and I want to see these kids given every opportunity to reach their potential.
"Dream Big..Work Hard".................. Sarah Storey, Paralympic Legend.
Joined: Jul 15 2005 Posts: 29797 Location: West Yorkshire
R.B.A wrote:Again you are correct that both sides efforts havnt resulted in enough players coming through our systems.
Maybe your view is the right one that we shouldn't waste money on trying to develop youngsters in our city. I certainly know people with your beliefs so you aren't on your own. Speaking personally I watch a heck of a lot more of local junior rugby than I do Hull or Rovers and I want to see these kids given every opportunity to reach their potential.
It was tongue in cheek. As Jon Wilkin commented so movingly as Hull FC descended the steps at Wembley in 2016, the core of Hull players - think there were 7 from Hull/homegrown - made a real difference and made the moment even more meaningful. Whether calibre of player pool, coaching or first team opportunities vs Lancashire though we seem to yield low first team returns, even lower on young players brought in from outside too.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
Mrs Barista wrote:It was tongue in cheek. As Jon Wilkin commented so movingly as Hull FC descended the steps at Wembley in 2016, the core of Hull players - think there were 7 from Hull/homegrown - made a real difference and made the moment even more meaningful. Whether calibre of player pool, coaching or first team opportunities vs Lancashire though we seem to yield low first team returns, even lower on young players brought in from outside too.
The key thing is winning - it’s not like you’d have rather lost with 8 or 9 from Hull. Rovers have clearly been doing too little of that in SL during this decade, especially the latter half of it. There’s been a variety of factors and poor decisions that have played into that, including not producing enough SL quality players through our development programmes. But I try to remember the good moments and hope for better in the future. I think you may have been accused of extenuating the positive from time to time, regarding Hull FC, no?
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Mar 14 2003 Posts: 25791 Location: Back in Hull.
I'm hoping we are going about our business quietly, I've heard for years about how good Rovers youth players are, but they haven't produced much in the last 10 years,probably only Taylor, they made a big deal over Will Oakes, but he hasn't yet fulfilled his potential. We haven't been great either, although I have high Hope's for Wynne (Although Shaul is in his way, but OOC this year and unless he has a great season it could be his last), Brown and Lane, all have lots of potential. Hearing very good things about Iwan Badlam as well.
It does look as though Rovers have made a good signing in Bastien, if only to sign a few top Bradford youngsters. Looking long term is a good strategy and one I hope we are also doing, but I'd still be worried about the short future, particularly next season as I still think they are one of the favourites to finish bottom.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
Dave K. wrote:I'm hoping we are going about our business quietly, I've heard for years about how good Rovers youth players are, but they haven't produced much in the last 10 years,probably only Taylor, they made a big deal over Will Oakes, but he hasn't yet fulfilled his potential. We haven't been great either, although I have high Hope's for Wynne (Although Shaul is in his way, but OOC this year and unless he has a great season it could be his last), Brown and Lane, all have lots of potential. Hearing very good things about Iwan Badlam as well.
It does look as though Rovers have made a good signing in Bastien, if only to sign a few top Bradford youngsters. Looking long term is a good strategy and one I hope we are also doing, but I'd still be worried about the short future, particularly next season as I still think they are one of the favourites to finish bottom.
Yeah, i’d say looking long term as well, is a good strategy. But it can’t be too much at the expense of the short term, as that is the foundation on which the long-term is built. The idea that the path to long-term success is through short-term failure and patience is deeply flawed imo. Obviously, it can go to far the other way, but when certain well-known RL personalities who only played for the most wealthy and successful clubs of their era start going on about doing things ‘the right way’, and say that things ‘stand to reason’ (straw man alert, but you get the idea, I hope)... well, i’m not so much annoyed that they say it, we all choose our beliefs for comfort to some extent, as that other people believe it. The one consolation of our relegation in 2016 was that it showed that taking one step backwards is sometimes just that.
On a positive note, our depth for 2020 is looking better now, and hopefully a younger squad will be less injury prone. Our backs, 1 to 5, look okay, especially if Linnett stays at centre, and Parcell should add value. On the flip side, we don’t have many experienced or dominant players or proven game-changers. Abdull and Keyes both look like good Robins (pardon the pun), who’d benefit from a Batman beside them. The back row looks hard-working but a little one-paced, although I think Livett will help in that regard. Garbutt’s knee is a concern, also - getting bullied down the middle has been a recurring theme of most recent years.
With youth the range of outcomes is really big, as players develop at different rates, different times and to different levels. What Rovers fans might think of as the Watts-Oakes-Bell spectrum of special young talents we’ve brought in from outside the area. For Hull, the generation of players who are now ~23 and who were touted as the spine of your team for years to come have mostly moved on. You never can tell.
As fans, part of our job is to mudsling and score cheap rhetorical points off each other. However, I would be curious to know the outcomes of any reviews either club has conducted, however informal, on their recent development systems. Is it the size of the talent pool, natural variation in outcomes, structures and processes? What would good look like?
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Jul 15 2005 Posts: 29797 Location: West Yorkshire
Mild Rover wrote:Yeah, i’d say looking long term as well, is a good strategy. But it can’t be too much at the expense of the short term, as that is the foundation on which the long-term is built. The idea that the path to long-term success is through short-term failure and patience is deeply flawed imo. Obviously, it can go to far the other way, but when certain well-known RL personalities who only played for the most wealthy and successful clubs of their era start going on about doing things ‘the right way’, and say that things ‘stand to reason’ (straw man alert, but you get the idea, I hope)... well, i’m not so much annoyed that they say it, we all choose our beliefs for comfort to some extent, as that other people believe it. The one consolation of our relegation in 2016 was that it showed that taking one step backwards is sometimes just that.
On a positive note, our depth for 2020 is looking better now, and hopefully a younger squad will be less injury prone. Our backs, 1 to 5, look okay, especially if Linnett stays at centre, and Parcell should add value. On the flip side, we don’t have many experienced or dominant players or proven game-changers. Abdull and Keyes both look like good Robins (pardon the pun), who’d benefit from a Batman beside them. The back row looks hard-working but a little one-paced, although I think Livett will help in that regard. Garbutt’s knee is a concern, also - getting bullied down the middle has been a recurring theme of most recent years.
With youth the range of outcomes is really big, as players develop at different rates, different times and to different levels. What Rovers fans might think of as the Watts-Oakes-Bell spectrum of special young talents we’ve brought in from outside the area. For Hull, the generation of players who are now ~23 and who were touted as the spine of your team for years to come have mostly moved on. You never can tell.
As fans, part of our job is to mudsling and score cheap rhetorical points off each other. However, I would be curious to know the outcomes of any reviews either club has conducted, however informal, on their recent development systems. Is it the size of the talent pool, natural variation in outcomes, structures and processes? What would good look like?
I agree. Pointless investing in youth if it's at the expense of first team success, as you just end up with the successful clubs creaming off your best talent. In reality it needs to be balanced, but the reason why the Big 4 on the whole have dominated is they have a bigger absolute pot and can afford to do both well.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
Mrs Barista wrote:I agree. Pointless investing in youth if it's at the expense of first team success, as you just end up with the successful clubs creaming off your best talent. In reality it needs to be balanced, but the reason why the Big 4 on the whole have dominated is they have a bigger absolute pot and can afford to do both well.
Absolutely. At the extremes right now, look at Salford and Bradford.
Salford likely won’t be able to sustain their 2019 levels, but it shows that if you have to prioritise to that degree, what the priority should be. Obviously, their positions aren’t exactly equivalent, and the comparison is maybe more striking than meaningful.
All that said, given that bringing through homegrown players was supposedly a priority, I do wonder what happened these last 8 years or so at Rovers. It’s not even like retention has been a big part of the problem. I know Green and Cox both had SL clubs as next ports of call, but not since we sold Taylor in 2012 have we lost a young club-trained player that went on to carve out a long-term SL career elsewhere.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Jul 15 2005 Posts: 29797 Location: West Yorkshire
Mild Rover wrote:Absolutely. At the extremes right now, look at Salford and Bradford.
Salford likely won’t be able to sustain their 2019 levels, but it shows that if you have to prioritise to that degree, what the priority should be. Obviously, their positions aren’t exactly equivalent, and the comparison is maybe more striking than meaningful.
All that said, given that bringing through homegrown players was supposedly a priority, I do wonder what happened these last 8 years or so at Rovers. It’s not even like retention has been a big part of the problem. I know Green and Cox both had SL clubs as next ports of call, but not since we sold Taylor in 2012 have we lost a young club-trained player that went on to carve out a long-term SL career elsewhere.
Interesting. I think we've done OK. Since your 2012 date we've released these homegrown players Tom Briscoe Reece Lyne James Cunningham Ben Crooks Dean Hadley Jordan Abdull Jez Litten Chris Green Kirk Yeaman Danny Washbrook
In addition to currently having Jamie Shaul Danny Houghton Josh Bowden Jordan Lane Masi Matongo Brad Fash
So in comparison to Rovers it's not too shabby. In fact, in the context of overall budget vs the Big 4, and first team performance, particularly in the cup, you'd say we've done well. Rovers will need to keep the Hudgell multi millionaire tap on for another few years you feel to deliver on both fronts.
Jake the Peg wrote:I keep seeing plenty about rovers new academy including a couple of highly rated signings from Bradford but have seen fiddly squat about ours. Have I missed it or hasn't there been anything? Anyone know what is happening? Any coaching appointments? Any new players signed?
Jake the Peg wrote:I keep seeing plenty about rovers new academy including a couple of highly rated signings from Bradford but have seen fiddly squat about ours. Have I missed it or hasn't there been anything? Anyone know what is happening? Any coaching appointments? Any new players signed?
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