ninearches wrote:It seems to me that the Boris method of leading with "no deal to get a good deal" is the only sensible way forward against the intransigent burghers of Brussels. It is just a pity that ever since the 2016 referendum certain powers have been at work to scupper the result. Certain MPs & members of elite society have completely side lined the popular vote to look towards the EU as being in their own best interest in terms of better pay for their personal coffers & possible future jobs to be had within the EU conglomerate. As for Corbyn ,he has more faces than the town hall clock.
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 17146 Location: Olicana - Home of 'Vark Slayer
ninearches wrote: against the intransigent burghers of Brussels.
What do you expect them to agree to?
ninearches wrote:members of elite society........ being in their own best interest in terms of better pay for their personal coffers
I'm presuming you typed that without any sense of irony?
“At last, a real, Tory budget,” Daily Mail 24/9/22 "It may be that the honourable gentleman doesn't like mixing with his own side … but we on this side have a more convivial, fraternal spirit." Jacob Rees-Mogg 21/10/21
A member of the Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati.
ninearches wrote:It seems to me that the Boris method of leading with "no deal to get a good deal" is the only sensible way forward against the intransigent burghers of Brussels.
What do you expect them to agree to?
The genuinely tragic thing is, so ill-informed are so many of these Brexiteers, that they genuinely believe that our European partners didn't make huge concessions as part of the withdrawal agreement. The EU negotiators got some pushback from the memer states for some of them.
But unless it's all the cake, fully eaten then they won't have any of it, regardless of what was said during the referendum campaign and their complete lack of mandate for any sort of no-deal exit.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
ninearches wrote: intransigent burghers of Brussels.
Very broadly speaking there were always going to be three directions out of the EU.
1. Something like Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, the members of the EEA 2. Something like Canada, with a basic free trade deal 3. No deal, WTO terms
The blame for disappointment for not getting some other imagined better deal belongs to those who imagined it and those who believed them, not the EU. People who don’t like any of the above three options probably shouldn’t have voted Leave.
The Irish border issue could and maybe should have been part of the future relationship negotiations. But given the UK government’s failure to articulate a position, and now with a deeply, deeply dishonest blustering gormclops calling the shots on our side, the EU were probably wise.
As Alan Duncan said the other day we’re all boxed in. We’ve done this to ourselves, all of us. To whine on that the EU won’t put our interests ahead of their own is utterly ridiculous, given the whole point of Brexit is meant to be us striking out by ourselves and standing on our on 140 million feet.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12647 Location: Leicestershire.
One delicious irony/horrifying reality is that Tories called this all on to see off Farage and now they’re pretty much completely beholden to him.
It is like some mad mash-up co-written Michael Dobbs, Mervyn Peake, Lewis Carroll and Franz Kafka.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Superblue wrote:Seem to recall it was teresa May went into the initial negotiations with the EU with the box full of Tory party majic unicorn demands and red lines.
And her eventual deal agreed would have passed were it not for the ERG Group
The frothy-mouthed loons have spent all week calling Hammond and Clarke etc "traitors" and saying they were "betraying the will of the people". Putting to one side the violence of the words being used, the tragic irony is these are people who voted for Brexit time and time again earlier in the year, putting their underlying beliefs that we should remain to one side to reflect the referendum result. Whilst at the same time as you say the ERG repeatedly voting against Brexit.
But I suspect this is too complicated for some of our Brexiteer friends to get their minds around.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Joined: Aug 09 2011 Posts: 1906 Location: Deepest North Yorkshire Woodland
The Ghost of '99 wrote:The genuinely tragic thing is, so ill-informed are so many of these Brexiteers, that they genuinely believe that our European partners didn't make huge concessions as part of the withdrawal agreement. The EU negotiators got some pushback from the memer states for some of them.
But unless it's all the cake, fully eaten then they won't have any of it, regardless of what was said during the referendum campaign and their complete lack of mandate for any sort of no-deal exit.
I would be grateful if you could please inform us of any major concessions that the EU made to us. I am certainly not aware of any. However I am aware the war monger Blair gave up part of Britain’s rebate, this on the promise that the French would sort out and reform the huge sums of money that France receive from the EU. We all know that never happened.
Backwoodsman wrote:I would be grateful if you could please inform us of any major concessions that the EU made to us. I am certainly not aware of any. However I am aware the war monger Blair gave up part of Britain’s rebate, this on the promise that the French would sort out and reform the huge sums of money that France receive from the EU. We all know that never happened.
Well for starters I recommend you stop looking at the EU as a zero sum game where "our" money gets shared out amongst others. The whole point, and it's success is well proven by now, is that this is mutually beneficial, where we all get better off by free-er, barrierless trade and movement. Where the EU funds infrastructure developments in poorer countries which get our goods to market more quickly, where the EU aligns baseline standards so that our goods can sell in other countries without having to re-engineer or re-work them. This is economically beneficial for all of us.
In terms of concessions, it's been well covered but the starting point has to be the EU's red lines, which were to protect the status of EU citizens living in the UK and to protect the interests of the Republic of Ireland, alongside the main practical red line that the single market by definition can't have an open border with a country outside it, hence the backstop. The backstop is the effect of a red line, not the red line itself - and the EU have asked time and time again for Britain to come up with a workable alternative which also tallies with the red lines unilaterally set out by the Conservative government: that we would not be a member of the customs union or the single market - these red lines were not mandated by the referendum result and are the root cause of our current issues because by going for such a hard Conservative Brexit the May government gave away the support they may have otherwise received from Labour in Parliament.
But the simple fact is, if you decide not to be part of the EU, not to be part of the customs union, not to be part of the Single Market and not to pay into the EU budget, then you are starting from a weak position. Conservative politicians have been demanding the benefits from all those things but don't want the mechanics that make them work.
Backwoodsman wrote:I would be grateful if you could please inform us of any major concessions that the EU made to us. I am certainly not aware of any. However I am aware the war monger Blair gave up part of Britain’s rebate, this on the promise that the French would sort out and reform the huge sums of money that France receive from the EU. We all know that never happened.
Well for starters I recommend you stop looking at the EU as a zero sum game where "our" money gets shared out amongst others. The whole point, and it's success is well proven by now, is that this is mutually beneficial, where we all get better off by free-er, barrierless trade and movement. Where the EU funds infrastructure developments in poorer countries which get our goods to market more quickly, where the EU aligns baseline standards so that our goods can sell in other countries without having to re-engineer or re-work them. This is economically beneficial for all of us.
In terms of concessions, it's been well covered but the starting point has to be the EU's red lines, which were to protect the status of EU citizens living in the UK and to protect the interests of the Republic of Ireland, alongside the main practical red line that the single market by definition can't have an open border with a country outside it, hence the backstop. The backstop is the effect of a red line, not the red line itself - and the EU have asked time and time again for Britain to come up with a workable alternative which also tallies with the red lines unilaterally set out by the Conservative government: that we would not be a member of the customs union or the single market - these red lines were not mandated by the referendum result and are the root cause of our current issues because by going for such a hard Conservative Brexit the May government gave away the support they may have otherwise received from Labour in Parliament.
But the simple fact is, if you decide not to be part of the EU, not to be part of the customs union, not to be part of the Single Market and not to pay into the EU budget, then you are starting from a weak position. Conservative politicians have been demanding the benefits from all those things but don't want the mechanics that make them work.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Getting back on the election trail, that is not actually agreed yet. Why is Boris allowed to go campaigning in Wakefield before the election is actually agreed ??
Those poor trainees having to stand and listen to his lies and waffle, just so that he could pretend to be the leader with "law & order" credentials for the party that cut 18,000 police and now expects them to stand and cheer for announcing the first steps to replace them, what an utter tool.
It's a shame that his own brother has got fed up of him though.
When your own family tell you that you are making a huge mistake, sometimes it's better to listen to them or, it will end in tears further down the line.
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