Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
Mild Rover wrote:The ERG hate anything that further confirms the end of our glorious imperial past and fundamentally don’t understand things like reality.
May’s isn’t remotely a centrist compromise deal. The only option on the far side of what she is offering is no deal, while there are 2 or 3 options on its softer side. Basically there are red lines that she could soften or drop, but not many more that she could add.
It is inevitable that MPs will push their own priorities. What’s the point of going into politics if you’re just going to do what you’re told? To their minds pursuing their agenda is for the common good - that’s why it is there preference. We do need to compromise, but everybody seems to think that it is somebody else who should give way, and May has been extremely inflexible - although I accept she is something of a hostage to her party. As I said previously, this isn’t primarily about personalities.
The corollary to your suggestion that the EU isn’t stupid enough to allow a no deal, which you think the UK is willing to countenance, is that the UK is stupid. Winning by application of stubborn stupidity would be one up for bulldog spirit I suppose.
If you think that our PM having to ask for extension, having to leave the room while the EU27 wearily decide our immediate fate and dictate the next steps is anything other than a humiliation, well... then i’m happy for you. There’s not much cause for positivity, so well done on salvaging some.
Any long extension would be to negotiate a softer brexit, because the only harder option available is no deal and that doesn’t need negotiation.
And here we have the perfect example of why Brexit is such a dog to get through.
You are utterly convinced in your views of May's deal. You think it's a 'hard' Brexit. You think the 'red lines' are a problem. That's your view. It's not necessarily wrong, however stating it as fact is erroneous.
I don't agree. I think the deal is a 'reasonable' Brexit and will do a job. I think the red lines are exactly what we voted for: to leave. I don't want a 'hard' Brexit but I believe that if Brexit is too soft there's no point in leaving. Remove the red lines and we might as well stay. That's my view.
Between you and me and everywhere else to our left and right are millions of other views, from the ERG to die-hard Remainers. As well as those using the issue to do nothing more than attack the government and in particular Theresa May. Unfortunately for us all, in Parliament there are more MPs to the hard and soft extremes than there are willing to take a reasonable line and vote for the deal on the table.
As for no deal, you're taking a simplistic and with respect, blinkered view. We need no-deal on the table to force the EU to blink, which is proven by the fact they have (driven by the clock ticking and oddly, Bercow's stunt). Of course we don't want to leave without a deal (and the vast majority would agree), but it needs to be there as a negotiating tool. The threat of no-deal and damage to Ireland and the EU economy is the only reason the EU have agreed an extension. Will they blink again? Well, what are Ireland saying behind closed doors? I can't imagine Varadkar is anything but terrified of a no-deal. What levels of lobbying are they getting from heads of EU industry and nations who trade heavily with us?
A no-deal would be as much a failure of the EU as it would Parliament.
But yes ultimately if nothing can be agreed, we go. Legally we have no choice right now, unless you want to see A50 revoked, the destruction of faith in our democratic system and a huge upsurge in the hard right?
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
wrencat1873 wrote:Cheers pal.
You may have to remind me where I've said that Labour would win a GE (be sure to have a really good look) As for the Tories increased majority, maybe and maybe not. If you had a better memory, you would remember the last election where the Tories expected to increase their majority and spectacularly dropped the ball, which left them cuddling up to the DUP, which is the main cause of the current debacle.
As for the Tories being united, I'm not so sure. The divisions caused over Brexit wont suddenly disappear and they have to decide on a new leader soon which could be mighty interesting. The Tories very quickly revert to type, still promising tax cuts, whilst at the same time watching suicide rates climb ever higher through their failed Universal Credit roll out. Squeezing the poor lovers at the bottom of the pile so hard that they have to take a different option but, for some people this seems like a price worth paying
With respect, you've said absolutely nothing of substance there other than an anti-Tory rant. So the Tories get back in power and nothing changes. Yet you claimed previously a General Election would solve the problem?
Cronus wrote:With respect, you've said absolutely nothing of substance there other than an anti-Tory rant. So the Tories get back in power and nothing changes. Yet you claimed previously a General Election would solve the problem?
AS I said, a GE "could" sole the problem, unless we end up with another hung parliament. A Tory majority would give them enough wiggle room to push their Brexit forward and a decent Labour majority, although very unlikely/impossible would see Corbyn go for his customs union. Ironically, if there were some kind of free vote, a Labour version of Brexit could get through parliament, although it wouldn't satisfy a fair slice of Leave voters and would very likely leave us at the mercy of The EU.
Cronus wrote:With respect, you've said absolutely nothing of substance there other than an anti-Tory rant. So the Tories get back in power and nothing changes. Yet you claimed previously a General Election would solve the problem?
It's easy to be anti Conservative whilst offering no alternative, Labour have being doing it for years!
MGarbutt1986 wrote:It's easy to be anti Conservative whilst offering no alternative, Labour have being doing it for years!
Yep, because they are doing a fantastic job aren't they ?? At least Brexit has taken all the heat for their appalling record on Crime and their swingeing cuts to a whole host of public services, not least mental health, which is a huge problem among millennials.
Joined: Aug 09 2011 Posts: 1906 Location: Deepest North Yorkshire Woodland
Seems a longtime ago but the simple question on the referendum ballot paper was, do you want to remain in the European or leave the European Union. A majority voted to leave the European Union. The treachery of some members of parliament is staggering. They then voted by a large majority to trigger article 50 ,which was the mechanism to leave the EU. Since then it looks like many if them under pressure from the establishment have back tracked.
Backwoodsman wrote:Seems a longtime ago but the simple question on the referendum ballot paper was, do you want to remain in the European or leave the European Union. A majority voted to leave the European Union. The treachery of some members of parliament is staggering. They then voted by a large majority to trigger article 50 ,which was the mechanism to leave the EU. Since then it looks like many if them under pressure from the establishment have back tracked.
You cant blemae them when Teresa May, rather than listen to ANYONE chose to go it alone and secured a deal that only she is happy with. Hell, she cant even muster agreement within the cabinet that SHE chose and she just wont accept that it's a crap deal.
Joined: May 30 2009 Posts: 455 Location: Warrington
Cronus wrote:And here we have the perfect example of why Brexit is such a dog to get through.
You are utterly convinced in your views of May's deal. You think it's a 'hard' Brexit. You think the 'red lines' are a problem. That's your view. It's not necessarily wrong, however stating it as fact is erroneous.
I don't agree. I think the deal is a 'reasonable' Brexit and will do a job. I think the red lines are exactly what we voted for: to leave. I don't want a 'hard' Brexit but I believe that if Brexit is too soft there's no point in leaving. Remove the red lines and we might as well stay. That's my view.
Between you and me and everywhere else to our left and right are millions of other views, from the ERG to die-hard Remainers. As well as those using the issue to do nothing more than attack the government and in particular Theresa May. Unfortunately for us all, in Parliament there are more MPs to the hard and soft extremes than there are willing to take a reasonable line and vote for the deal on the table.
As for no deal, you're taking a simplistic and with respect, blinkered view. We need no-deal on the table to force the EU to blink, which is proven by the fact they have (driven by the clock ticking and oddly, Bercow's stunt). Of course we don't want to leave without a deal (and the vast majority would agree), but it needs to be there as a negotiating tool. The threat of no-deal and damage to Ireland and the EU economy is the only reason the EU have agreed an extension. Will they blink again? Well, what are Ireland saying behind closed doors? I can't imagine Varadkar is anything but terrified of a no-deal. What levels of lobbying are they getting from heads of EU industry and nations who trade heavily with us?
A no-deal would be as much a failure of the EU as it would Parliament.
But yes ultimately if nothing can be agreed, we go. Legally we have no choice right now, unless you want to see A50 revoked, the destruction of faith in our democratic system and a huge upsurge in the hard right?
Your absolutely right imo, Ive said before that ive not read the detail of Mays deal if someone has then please enlighten me why its so bad I just can't see it. If someone has and can see a massive issue then I would love to know apart from the backstop issue.
Cameron spend over £9 million of tax payers money sending that leaflet to all households (legally I know) giving the Government position as to why we should stay in the EU: The country still voted to leave
We were told time and time again the we would have to leave the customs union and the single market if we leave because part of that would be freedom of movement. The country still voted to leave
The then chancellor said that if we voted to leave the EU, he would have to do an emergency budget. Taxes would have to rise and more spending cuts (the absolutely last thing use needed) Yet, the country still voted to leave.
Yet the people who we voted in on all sides are still trying to fudge it. Some want a soft Norway style which would mean us agreeing to freedom of movement, others want us to just leave with no deal at all. Is mays deal not somewhere in-between which we can all agree to.
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 17160 Location: Olicana - Home of 'Vark Slayer
POSTL wrote: Snip.The country still voted to leave
I guess you could balance that with 40 years of xenophobia, racism, lies and hatred from the majority of the MSM.
“At last, a real, Tory budget,” Daily Mail 24/9/22 "It may be that the honourable gentleman doesn't like mixing with his own side … but we on this side have a more convivial, fraternal spirit." Jacob Rees-Mogg 21/10/21
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