Joined: Aug 09 2011 Posts: 1906 Location: Deepest North Yorkshire Woodland
If may had returned from Brussels with the offer of a gold bar for everyone in the uk Labour would have still voted against it. They just want to vote down any deal in order to instigate chaos and a general election. Saw trickett the Labour MP on tv who certainly is not the sharpest knife in the box. He claims that the only answer to this political log jam is another referendum or a general election. Conveniently overlooking the fact that labour voted against the deal which was put before the house.
bren2k wrote:There are no facts in there but one - and the Labour party abstained from the motion because the PV movement itself said it was too soon and tactically, the wrong time. I actually think he's played his hand very well - Labour's position has been clear since conference, and he's stuck to that - in the process, inflicting a series of devastating defeats on the government.
I just can't see this argument that because he's not trying to overturn the result at every twist and turn, it's a failure - because it clearly isn't a failure in the eyes of the Labour voters who also voted leave; and I have less and less sympathy with the argument, largely because of the arrogance and certainty with which many of its advocates have rounded on Corbyn as the 'cause' of Brexit, simply because he isn't willing to alienate the electorate by openly stating that he wants to overturn the result; and why are the Tories - the sole cause and agents of Brexit - getting off scot free? Where are the calls for Mrs May, passionate Remainer, to overturn the result and go immediately to a PV?
It goes back to the earlier point that Brexit does not fall neatly within party lines - and that makes it exceptionally difficult for our party political system to navigate through; which is why Mrs May's refusal to work on building a cross-party consensus instead of doggedly pursuing her own deal, has failed - and why the divisions caused by the campaign and the result are now worse rather than better.
Bren, I know that the pollsters do get things wrong but, as I said, he is failing because despite the shambolic ruling party, Labour are STILL 6/7 points behind in the polls, against THE weakest government in over 50 years.
Although I have no time for Mrs May, she is one of the few MP's who voted remain and IS trying to achieve some kind of Brexit, albeit a shizzle deal, that has been handled shockingly from the outset.
She has gone with her own view, rather than take ANY account of the country at large and has done NOTHING to sell any view of life beyond Brexit or, try to build bridges between Leave and Remain and Labour are STILL behind in the polls.
wrencat1873 wrote:Bren, I know that the pollsters do get things wrong but, as I said, he is failing because despite the shambolic ruling party, Labour are STILL 6/7 points behind in the polls, against THE weakest government in over 50 years.
Although I have no time for Mrs May, she is one of the few MP's who voted remain and IS trying to achieve some kind of Brexit, albeit a shizzle deal, that has been handled shockingly from the outset.
She has gone with her own view, rather than take ANY account of the country at large and has done NOTHING to sell any view of life beyond Brexit or, try to build bridges between Leave and Remain and Labour are STILL behind in the polls.
You seem fixated by polls - do you recall where Labour were in the polls before the snap GE, when the Govt's working majority was wiped out, and Labour received it's highest vote share since the 40's?
Polls are now a political weapon - they are used selectively, in a non-partisan way, to *shape* public opinion rather than to reflect it.
bren2k wrote:You seem fixated by polls - do you recall where Labour were in the polls before the snap GE, when the Govt's working majority was wiped out, and Labour received it's highest vote share since the 40's?
Polls are now a political weapon - they are used selectively, in a non-partisan way, to *shape* public opinion rather than to reflect it.
Fair enough Bren, although IF Labour were 10 points ahead in the polls, I guarantee that both you and I would be happier ?? Things can of course change during an election campaign but, right now, Corbyn is not cutting it and I repeat, is a closet Eurosceptic. Ultimately it will be his (political) funeral but, against Mrs May and her party of warring factions, ANY serious opposition party should be well ahead.
Joined: Oct 26 2005 Posts: 3829 Location: In the seaside town ...that they forgot to bomb
Backwoodsman wrote:If may had returned from Brussels with the offer of a gold bar for everyone in the uk Labour would have still voted against it. They just want to vote down any deal in order to instigate chaos and a general election. Saw trickett the Labour MP on tv who certainly is not the sharpest knife in the box. He claims that the only answer to this political log jam is another referendum or a general election. Conveniently overlooking the fact that labour voted against the deal which was put before the house.
You can bang on about Labour till the cows come home, however the Tories plus the D.U.P. have enough M.P.'s to get the deal through.
How about Barclay, he stood at the dispatch box saying a "realistic" extension was in the nations interest, he then voted against the Government motion!
Labour didn't call the referendum, nor the G.E, & is in the minority in the house, all the blame lies totally with the Tories.
In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats! They're eating the pets!
Joined: May 30 2009 Posts: 455 Location: Warrington
tigertot wrote:Don't talk crap. A democracy is where you can change your mind. It's like saying you vote for a political party with no knowledge of any of its policies & are not allowed to criticise it when its true colours are shown.
What on earth are you talking about, this was not an election and even an election within our so called democracy we cannot have one every couple of years thank god even if we do change our mind. It was promised as a one off referendum what ever the result, therefore, to go back on that would be undemocratic. Would you be happy for the SDP to keep kicking the can down the road and have referendums every couple of years until they get their way, because I wouldn't. you don't even know who if anyone has changed their mind.
If there was clear indication and I mean a clear indication that the people of this country has dramatically changed its mind then maybe it should be considered, but I have not seen any indications of that.
Joined: May 30 2009 Posts: 455 Location: Warrington
wrencat1873 wrote:Bren, I know that the pollsters do get things wrong but, as I said, he is failing because despite the shambolic ruling party, Labour are STILL 6/7 points behind in the polls, against THE weakest government in over 50 years.
Although I have no time for Mrs May, she is one of the few MP's who voted remain and IS trying to achieve some kind of Brexit, albeit a shizzle deal, that has been handled shockingly from the outset.
She has gone with her own view, rather than take ANY account of the country at large and has done NOTHING to sell any view of life beyond Brexit or, try to build bridges between Leave and Remain and Labour are STILL behind in the polls.
Absolutely re Labour, they have a totally shambolic Tory govnt, arguably the worst Prime Minister in history and they ARE still behind in the polls, it was comical top see them all sat on their bums and not voting in the new referendum vote. If they want another referendum vote for it, if not then vote against but for god sake have an opinion. Thats what we have had off our main opposition right through this fiasco. I am a Labour voter or should I say was.
I am totally disgusted with this Tory Government, but Labour continue to show how weak they are and I cannot vote for them.
wrencat1873 wrote:Fair enough Bren, although IF Labour were 10 points ahead in the polls, I guarantee that both you and I would be happier ?? Things can of course change during an election campaign but, right now, Corbyn is not cutting it and I repeat, is a closet Eurosceptic. Ultimately it will be his (political) funeral but, against Mrs May and her party of warring factions, ANY serious opposition party should be well ahead.
Nope - as I said, polls are not reliable (with one notable exception) and they don't reflect - they direct; so I wouldn't care either way.
Corbyn campaigned for and voted Remain - and I think his position was 'Remain and Reform' - which seems very sensible to me; because if a large section of the electorate are, as they now claim, dissatisfied with the EU (although I didn't see much evidence of that prior to the referendum campaign) the best way to satisfy them was to stay in and retain all the benefits, but work to reform it as a voting member.
He may not be cutting it for you - but Labour remains the single biggest political party in Europe, and under his leadership, it has become financially stable and returned the biggest vote share since 1945; and many of the socialist policies in the manifesto are universally popular, particularly the nationalisation of rail and utility companies - so he's doing something right.
Anywho - it takes all-sorts to make a world - and at least now there's the Funny Tinge party for all the disenfranchised centrists to get behind; who isn't thrilled by the prospect of continuing austerity and the return of national service?
Joined: May 30 2009 Posts: 455 Location: Warrington
Can someone enlighten me, I have heard all the talk about this deal that May has negotiated and how bad it is for the country, I thought the main issue was the backstop and in effect a border down the Irish Sea, however, I have also heard that it would keep us linked to the EU for ever, which I have never understood why. On todays daily politics it was mentioned again but in the context of the link being in a customs union and a trade policy is that the only reason. Surely not.
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 17160 Location: Olicana - Home of 'Vark Slayer
I meant your faux hysteria around the end of democracy. You & the rest of the Brexit militia were noticeably silent when May called a general election at extra short notice less than 2 years after the last, in an attempt to stifle democratic debate. But what's this;
POSTL wrote:What on earth are you talking about, this was not an election and even an election within our so called democracy we cannot have one every couple of years thank god even if we do change our mind.
I also didn’t notice you on here screaming the end of democracy when May repeatedly takes her Leave strategy to the vote when she has been trounced. The true colours of the Brexiteers are really on show with their threats of civil unrest.
“At last, a real, Tory budget,” Daily Mail 24/9/22 "It may be that the honourable gentleman doesn't like mixing with his own side … but we on this side have a more convivial, fraternal spirit." Jacob Rees-Mogg 21/10/21
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