Cronus wrote:You and I both know the EU in its current form is light years away from what was voted for in the 70s - and probably from what it seeks to be in another 40 years. The creeping enforcement of an ideology over what should only ever have been a trading arrangement.
If a second referendum is called and remain wins, why should I respect that? Very, very few on the remain side have ever respected the first result, instead they've derided and condemned and fought against the entire process, all the while lying through their teeth to "respect the result". You want leavers to happily accept their first votes being rejected? Dangerous ground.
You obviously don't give a tinker's toss for the views of 17.4M people across vast swathes of England and Wales. I don't know where you live but I'll guess Wakefield (or at least you hail from there) - 66.4% leave. You obviously don't give a tinker's toss about the views of your own community.
You completely ignored the "democratic vote" in Wales, N. Ireland and Scotland issue ?? As for the people of Wakefield, you may be right, as my view is different to the majority who voted in this area.
Back in the day, the majority also thought that the world was flat and they got that wrong as well
More than happy to be in a minority though and supporting Trinity usually means an uphill struggle.
Joined: May 30 2009 Posts: 455 Location: Warrington
wrencat1873 wrote:IF Brexit was reversed (by a second referendum), surely, the majority would be getting what they wanted ?? Remember, Brexit is already reversing the will of the people who voted in the 70's.
Also, the vote already leaves large areas of the UK, Wales, N. Ireland and Scotland, having something imposed on them which they clearly voted against. Indeed, one of the factors during the Scottish Independence vote, was that Cameron assured them that we would remain in the EU. Obviously you don't give a tinkers toss about their views.
I really can't believe you stated that we are reversing the will of the people in the 1970's, with all respect that is scraping the bottom of the barrel, easy I also add what was voted for way way back in the 70's was a common market it was NOT a rule maker as it is now.
I think you should give the Scottish people just a little bit of respect, if Cameron or any politician promised you something would you actually believe it, if he did actually promise that.
You are the typical remain voter we hear on tv using words like Crashing out, falling off the edge of the cliff etc
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
wrencat1873 wrote:You completely ignored the "democratic vote" in Wales, N. Ireland and Scotland issue ?? As for the people of Wakefield, you may be right, as my view is different to the majority who voted in this area.
Back in the day, the majority also thought that the world was flat and they got that wrong as well
More than happy to be in a minority though and supporting Trinity usually means an uphill struggle.
I edited my reply while you typed this I think.
I haven't ignored anything, far from it. But we voted as the UK, and as much as wee Jimmy might wish otherwise, Scotland is part of the UK, as is Norn Iron. Wales voted leave so I'm not sure what your point is there?
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 32066 Location: The Corridor of Uncertainty
Cronus wrote:Yes, perhaps history books would be a good idea. Silencing the people is never a good idea. Especially when they have already exercised their democratic right - and won.
If Brexit were reversed I would absolutely vote for whichever far right party emerged from the mess, and damn the consequences. Why shouldn't I? While there are plenty of genuine and good MPs in Westminster, too many across all parties are self-serving and see themselves as above the people. To enact the democratic result of the referendum a drastic change would be required.
Answer me this: if Brexit is reversed and 17.4 million votes rejected, what would be the point of voting for the status quo?
The liberal left should be thinking very carefully about the consequences of getting what they wish for. They've trodden on dissenting voices for decades and eventually things will snap.
So in your view you'd go full fascist if necessary.
You're obviously not a full shilling.
"If you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them," - Wayne Bennett.
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12664 Location: Leicestershire.
Cronus wrote:I'll never vote Labour while Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott are stillaround, and the Lib Dems etc are too far bonkers left for me. Frankly by that point I'd be beyond caring and I will not have my voice silenced by self-serving vultures in Westminster. My vote goes elsewhere.
I understand and even share frustrations with our democratic process. Our first past the post system has led to swing voters in marginal seats being targeted and everybody else being largely ignored. I think the referendum caught most politicians off guard, as they were so used to chasing voters in the middle that when those perceived as being on the edge had just as an important voice, they didn’t know how to speak to them.
On a, sort of, more positive note - the leadership of the two largest parties are both committed to delivering Brexit, they just can’t agree on which type. I think claims of betrayal are premature... or maybe just pre-emptive, or habitual. POSTL wants to Leave but thinks we won’t, i voted remain but i’m pretty certain we’ll leave. Maybe we’ve all just been conditioned to expect disappointment.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: May 30 2009 Posts: 455 Location: Warrington
wrencat1873 wrote:IF Farage (or anyone else stoke the prospect of civil unrest, it will happen). Regardless of Brexit, we've had 10 years of austerity and although unemployment may be down, generally, people are hacked off with the way that the country had been run. Protests are possible from all factions and it doesnt take too much to escalate protest into something close to riot
As for voting for an extremist party such as new (even further right) UKIP, people need to think just what they are voting for and for idiots like Farage to be stoking this fire as an idle threat is just down right irresponsible.
Mind you, he will probably bee out of the country when it all turns nasty and saying that he had nothing to do with it.
To be fair Farage did not stoke the prospect of civil unrest, I was answering someone else and didn't want to go into it to much. He was asked if there would be protests, civil unrest etc if the leave vote was overturned, he replied to the effect that civil unrest is not the British way and we should leave that to the French. Sorry mate for causing confusion.
I would love someone like Farage to take back control of UKIP to stop its possible move to the far right. Then I would at least have someone to vote for
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12664 Location: Leicestershire.
Cronus wrote:Answer my questions.
Why shouldn’t somebody vote for a far right party?
If by a far right party you mean something like the BNP or current version of UKIP, then because angry bigotry doesn’t solve anything and is horribly dangerous.
If you mean a breakaway Farage-Johnson-JRM Brexit party, then it’s not to my taste and would doubtless attract dog-whistling types, but it’s not what i’d define as far right.
As for far right vs status quo, there are other options - I don’t think saying you’re unhappy with how things are so you’re chucking your lot in with the Tommy Robinsons and Nick Griffins of the world would be a justifiable position.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
MGarbutt1986 wrote:100% agree, I voted remain, but the MAJORITY voted leave, but wrencat and his mates would like Corbyn in power, so that tells us everything. May is weak, but she passed a poisoned chalice by Cameron.
We need the REAL Conservative party to stand up, at the moment there is no spine in government and precious little even in wider parliament.
We need the Conservative Party united behind May to get this deal voted through. There are some signs the ERG are softening but it's nowhere near enough while so many agendas are being pushed.
Thankfully it's unlikely Corbyn would win a GE even now. That's a truly damning reflection of his leadership and his strategy.
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