Post subject: Re: Academy lads and their allegiences
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:29 am
DGM
International Star
Joined: Mar 03 2015 Posts: 2490
Rye_Robin wrote:On a side note, I think allegiances start at grass roots Hull amateur clubs. My lads play for a club at in a younger age group, I won't name it for now. We're Rovers fans and it's plain to us that the club has a very obvious FC bias although the club officials will always deny it. We get some good natured banter but sometimes it goes over the top, even from coaches, and some parents refused to go to Craven park to watch their lads play at half time last year which I thought was disgusting at the time! The only games we get invited to are FC games, players come for training are FC players, we never see anything from Rovers. When I challenged this they just said they invite Rovers but they never hear back from them. Rover deny any knowledge when counter-challenged. Some of my lads pals who have never been interested in RL have come along and are now Black and Whites because that's all they know.
It's getting a bit annoying now, so can Rovers do more to spread out from their East Hull Heartlands or do they feel they are flogging a dead horse..?
Your last paragraph is a really good point, and one I've thought about myself. There are a number of towns an hour or so away from Hull, that could sustain a community club, yet don't have one, or have potential fans that could be engaged. Immingham Wasps for instance have just been founded and are looking for fixtures, our two clubs need to get in there if they haven't already.
Immingham has what, 10,000 people? It doesn't take vast populations to sustain a junior club, maybe one or two decent sized schools in the area. Wetherby Bulldogs are a good example, 20,000 population and they churn out Alex Foster.
My local club are on the outskirts of Leeds & set up 9 new sides in 4 years or so, and they do so via engagement with the Foundation and two local schools. They contact the Foundation & say, "we want to set up an U10 age group", for instance. The Foundation then goes into the schools to deliver taster classes, perhaps with a player or two, with the local clubs coaches there (speaking to the kids & parents). They set up a first training session at the community club through the school. Done. This has worked every single time. In fact, they've had too many kids at times, so finding coaches/touch-line managers have been their biggest issue (also supported by the Foundation).
Another thing the Rhinos do (sorry to bring them up again, but I've worked a lot with them in the past) is set up supporters branches here there and everywhere. They meet regularly, players go along, they share travel, they get exclusive offers etc.
Our community clubs are also (generally) pi£$ poor at going after lottery/charity/government funding. There's a huge pot to be dipped into. Ever wondered why RU community clubs seem to have these plush clubhouses and the RL slide nex tdoor are using a container to get changed in? It's because they're told how to go after the funding. Some of our clubs do it/have done it, but they've done so themselves. The RFL really need to lead on educating the clubs as to how to do it. If anyone can be bothered, Google what Guiseley Rangers have done over the past 2/3 years to see what hard work & knowhow can get you. https://democracy.leeds.gov.uk/documents/s131027/app
Sorry, gone off on a bit of a tangent there.
Rye_Robin wrote:On a side note, I think allegiances start at grass roots Hull amateur clubs. My lads play for a club at in a younger age group, I won't name it for now. We're Rovers fans and it's plain to us that the club has a very obvious FC bias although the club officials will always deny it. We get some good natured banter but sometimes it goes over the top, even from coaches, and some parents refused to go to Craven park to watch their lads play at half time last year which I thought was disgusting at the time! The only games we get invited to are FC games, players come for training are FC players, we never see anything from Rovers. When I challenged this they just said they invite Rovers but they never hear back from them. Rover deny any knowledge when counter-challenged. Some of my lads pals who have never been interested in RL have come along and are now Black and Whites because that's all they know.
It's getting a bit annoying now, so can Rovers do more to spread out from their East Hull Heartlands or do they feel they are flogging a dead horse..?
Your last paragraph is a really good point, and one I've thought about myself. There are a number of towns an hour or so away from Hull, that could sustain a community club, yet don't have one, or have potential fans that could be engaged. Immingham Wasps for instance have just been founded and are looking for fixtures, our two clubs need to get in there if they haven't already.
Immingham has what, 10,000 people? It doesn't take vast populations to sustain a junior club, maybe one or two decent sized schools in the area. Wetherby Bulldogs are a good example, 20,000 population and they churn out Alex Foster.
My local club are on the outskirts of Leeds & set up 9 new sides in 4 years or so, and they do so via engagement with the Foundation and two local schools. They contact the Foundation & say, "we want to set up an U10 age group", for instance. The Foundation then goes into the schools to deliver taster classes, perhaps with a player or two, with the local clubs coaches there (speaking to the kids & parents). They set up a first training session at the community club through the school. Done. This has worked every single time. In fact, they've had too many kids at times, so finding coaches/touch-line managers have been their biggest issue (also supported by the Foundation).
Another thing the Rhinos do (sorry to bring them up again, but I've worked a lot with them in the past) is set up supporters branches here there and everywhere. They meet regularly, players go along, they share travel, they get exclusive offers etc.
Our community clubs are also (generally) pi£$ poor at going after lottery/charity/government funding. There's a huge pot to be dipped into. Ever wondered why RU community clubs seem to have these plush clubhouses and the RL slide nex tdoor are using a container to get changed in? It's because they're told how to go after the funding. Some of our clubs do it/have done it, but they've done so themselves. The RFL really need to lead on educating the clubs as to how to do it. If anyone can be bothered, Google what Guiseley Rangers have done over the past 2/3 years to see what hard work & knowhow can get you. https://democracy.leeds.gov.uk/documents/s131027/app
Sorry, gone off on a bit of a tangent there.
Cup Winners: 1914, 1982, 2005, 2016, 2017. Cup Runners-Up: 1908, 1909, 1910, 1922, 1923, 1959, 1960, 1980, 1983, 1985, 2008, 2013. League Champions: 1920, 1921, 1936, 1956, 1958, 1983. League Runners-Up: 1957, 1982, 1984, 2006.
Post subject: Re: Academy lads and their allegiences
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:03 pm
Rye_Robin
Club Captain
Joined: Jun 19 2018 Posts: 37
Good points, however unlike West Riding my feelings are it would be a brave move for any RL club to venture too far out into East Yorkshire because they would undoubtedly hit a giant Rugby Union brick wall. My view is that Rovers are far to insular even within the Greater HU Postcode area and they should try to go a bit further North & West.
As I understand it they get the same amount of money for the Community schemes as any other super League Club so money can't be the obvious excuse.
Post subject: Re: Academy lads and their allegiences
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:14 pm
DGM
International Star
Joined: Mar 03 2015 Posts: 2490
Rye_Robin wrote:Good points, however unlike West Riding my feelings are it would be a brave move for any RL club to venture too far out into East Yorkshire because they would undoubtedly hit a giant Rugby Union brick wall. My view is that Rovers are far to insular even within the Greater HU Postcode area and they should try to go a bit further North & West.
It's all about mentality IMO. Some might look upon the East Riding as Union territory and a no-go zone, I look at it that there's a load of rugby playing youngsters bored out of their minds during Summer (& probably Winter to be fair ). A massive opportunity to go after.
Rye_Robin wrote:As I understand it they get the same amount of money for the Community schemes as any other super League Club so money can't be the obvious excuse.
I think all clubs get c£100k to run a foundation/community scheme. Which isn't a great deal.
Again, it comes down to hard work and knowledge. Foundations should be set up as charities, and again there are huge pots of funding/grants available to go after, as well as sponsorship from local businesses. The Rhinos Foundation has c40 employees, with little or no direct financial support from the club itself (obviously they support in many other ways).
Cup Winners: 1914, 1982, 2005, 2016, 2017. Cup Runners-Up: 1908, 1909, 1910, 1922, 1923, 1959, 1960, 1980, 1983, 1985, 2008, 2013. League Champions: 1920, 1921, 1936, 1956, 1958, 1983. League Runners-Up: 1957, 1982, 1984, 2006.
Post subject: Re: Academy lads and their allegiences
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:57 pm
Mild Rover
Moderator
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12645 Location: Leicestershire.
DGM wrote:True regarding injuries, which is where top local talent & U19's fill in, I don't feel there'd be a significant additional financial outlay. Even with our injuries on Saturday, we still had Turgut, Lane, Sanderson, Litten, Scott, Bieniek & Osborne available to us.
I'm not sure the senior players would end up playing more matches, particularly with the league changes for 2019, but the youngsters certainly would.
Sanction - I'm really not sure as I'm not sure what's in place now.
Plenty of things are compulsory that work for the greater good. The salary cap, the non-fed rules etc. Part of a clubs membership to SL, in return for the central funding they receive, should be commitments to 'give back' to the game, and a great way to do that is to increase participation and increase the player pool.
I get your point re investment, but if every club adopted that attitude we'd see our academies dry up. In fact, we're already seeing the start of that with our clubs pooling their investment. Some clubs with be non-believers and see it as a financial burden, but as I mentioned, there are ways they can commercialise the reserves if they put the effort in.
Some fair points. Getting borderline friendly and sensible, this thread!
Just on the bit in red, it is in some ways it easier to stop a club from doing things with rules than is to make them do things. Part of why the cap and quotas, over complicated as they are, are still with us and somewhat effective, but licensing didn't achieve very much or last very long, imo.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Post subject: Re: Academy lads and their allegiences
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:13 pm
craig hkr
International Star
Joined: Jul 20 2011 Posts: 2363
The RFU have a guy working with the East Riding schools, even Yorkshire cricket send bowling/batting coaches down even at primary level.You have to engage youngsters.You will probably lose 20 for every 1 you bring through as keeping them interested is nigh on impossible My nephew was involved in local RL but now obsessed with boxing but had real talent in RL. I went to Hunsley a fair while ago and no RL played there (officaly) Just RU.They are better funded better organised and have a far superior international product but a RU club game is turgid to watch compared to SL imo
Post subject: Re: Academy lads and their allegiences
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:55 pm
Mild Rover
Moderator
Joined: Jun 01 2007 Posts: 12645 Location: Leicestershire.
craig hkr wrote:They are better funded better organised and have a far superior international product but a RU club game is turgid to watch compared to SL imo
Back when Union was officially amateur still and was based more heavily around kicking and set pieces, imo there was, even allowing for my bias, a big gap.
Union has come a long way as a spectacle. It is still flawed, imo - but that largely just reflects my preferences now. Putting aside, probably now outdated, resentments there’s much to admire even though I remain largely uninterested.
At the same time, the dicking about in the ruck and conservative tactics make RL games I watch as neutral less compelling than a few years ago.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
Butler was picked up from Siddal, a local amateur side when he was 22. Exposure to the training and support at Fax, he improved and went to the World Cup with Wales last year and is a regular in Fax's first team. What a success story.
Even at Hull, Chris Green and Jamie Shaul were playing locally and almost lost to the professional game.
Butler was picked up from Siddal, a local amateur side when he was 22. Exposure to the training and support at Fax, he improved and went to the World Cup with Wales last year and is a regular in Fax's first team. What a success story.
Even at Hull, Chris Green and Jamie Shaul were playing locally and almost lost to the professional game.
Cup Winners: 1914, 1982, 2005, 2016, 2017. Cup Runners-Up: 1908, 1909, 1910, 1922, 1923, 1959, 1960, 1980, 1983, 1985, 2008, 2013. League Champions: 1920, 1921, 1936, 1956, 1958, 1983. League Runners-Up: 1957, 1982, 1984, 2006.
Post subject: Re: Academy lads and their allegiences
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:56 pm
Rye_Robin
Club Captain
Joined: Jun 19 2018 Posts: 37
Problem is there's still a lot of outdated, and I believe, class related prejudices from the Union people towards our game in this area.
My lads play both codes and some of his more snobbish Union coaches are clearly unhappy he and some of his mates play contact League. It's not helped by them only playing tag at his age group so some of the tags are, how can I put it...? - A little robust! And hand-offs are frowned upon which is really difficult for a 6yr old to remember what code he's playing when running full pelt with the ball. However when they do start to tackle in a year's time they will be the best tacklers on the pitch!
Having said that I do believe there is room for both codes to flourish at their young age group but the problems will arise eventually when match days clash at weekends and they are forced to choose code.
Butler was picked up from Siddal, a local amateur side when he was 22. Exposure to the training and support at Fax, he improved and went to the World Cup with Wales last year and is a regular in Fax's first team. What a success story.
Even at Hull, Chris Green and Jamie Shaul were playing locally and almost lost to the professional game.
It sounds like it is working well for Halifax. If Rovers were relegated and eventually had to go part-time, for example, I can see value in running an inexpensive reserve team as part of wider reshaping of the club, along a similar model.
However, all clubs have different circumstances and a variety of approaches is fine imo. Presently we’re a SL club and our partnership with York seems to be working well (for both parties, based on what their coach has said). Equally, i’ve got no issue with other SL clubs running reserve teams if that suits them. Making it compulsory, just reminds me of licensing - of people who don’t have the pressures of running a club more or less accusing those that do of doing it wrong, and trying to force them to do it differently.
Edit. I’ve just been looking for Jamie Peacock quotes for t’other thread, and I quite like this Queensland-inspired model (details towards the end of the article). http://www.seriousaboutrl.com/peacock-r ... rade-5023/ Which is pretty near to a reserve team, but I especially like that the younger lads stay with their amateur clubs longer. Obviously, KuH and the East Riding isn’t Brisbane and Queensland, but investment in links with community clubs, and 19s and 23s (with a limited number over age) is attractive imo. And if the 23s were a joint team under the CoH banner, it could be worthwhile and affordable. Karen made a good point about about building a club identity through these teams, a while back, but imo it’d be better to focus resources.
Butler was picked up from Siddal, a local amateur side when he was 22. Exposure to the training and support at Fax, he improved and went to the World Cup with Wales last year and is a regular in Fax's first team. What a success story.
Even at Hull, Chris Green and Jamie Shaul were playing locally and almost lost to the professional game.
It sounds like it is working well for Halifax. If Rovers were relegated and eventually had to go part-time, for example, I can see value in running an inexpensive reserve team as part of wider reshaping of the club, along a similar model.
However, all clubs have different circumstances and a variety of approaches is fine imo. Presently we’re a SL club and our partnership with York seems to be working well (for both parties, based on what their coach has said). Equally, i’ve got no issue with other SL clubs running reserve teams if that suits them. Making it compulsory, just reminds me of licensing - of people who don’t have the pressures of running a club more or less accusing those that do of doing it wrong, and trying to force them to do it differently.
Edit. I’ve just been looking for Jamie Peacock quotes for t’other thread, and I quite like this Queensland-inspired model (details towards the end of the article). http://www.seriousaboutrl.com/peacock-r ... rade-5023/ Which is pretty near to a reserve team, but I especially like that the younger lads stay with their amateur clubs longer. Obviously, KuH and the East Riding isn’t Brisbane and Queensland, but investment in links with community clubs, and 19s and 23s (with a limited number over age) is attractive imo. And if the 23s were a joint team under the CoH banner, it could be worthwhile and affordable. Karen made a good point about about building a club identity through these teams, a while back, but imo it’d be better to focus resources.
'Thus I am tormented by my curiosity and humbled by my ignorance.' from History of an Old Bramin, The New York Mirror (A Weekly Journal Devoted to Literature and the Fine Arts), February 16th 1833.
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). A massive opportunity to go after.
And hand-offs are frowned upon which is really difficult for a 6yr old to remember what code he's playing when running full pelt with the ball. However when they do start to tackle in a year's time they will be the best tacklers on the pitch!
