Backwoodsman wrote:Most of the Labour Party and a group of tories want to stay in the customs union. The EU have made it quite clear that the rules of the EU state that you can’t arrange free trade on your own behalf, if you are in this union. So if we arrive at this situation it will mean we haven’t left the EU. Sadly the chattering metropolitan elite know this, so it’s quite obviously a ploy to scupper the democratic vote. Ironically the unelected House of Lords is behind all this. The Irish border issue is being used by the EU as a weapon to disrupt negotiations. The majority of trade between Eire and the UK does not go through Northern Ireland. Border movements can easily be controlled by vehicle number recognition cameras. When I fly from Manchester airport, I pay before and the barriers system recognises my plate and let’s me in. If Teresa may had any courage she should tell all the parties concerned we won’t erect any hard border posts. If you want to put up border posts it’s up to you. I note that we purchase large quantities of beef from Eire. If Eire makes things difficult I am quite certain we can buy from other sources. The situation remains the same a democratic vote took place and one side won and the other lost. Although you would think that never happened, if you listened to Blair,Adonis, Campbell etc etc.
At this point, it's not about winning or losing, it's about getting the best future for the UK, end of story. There is significant disagreement on what may be the best for the UK and Mrs May and her negotiating side appear to be clinging on to a "miracle" bespoke deal that will leave the UK with a free trade agreement AND the ability to negotiate directly with other Nations. As this would put the UK at an advantage over thew EU27, it isnt going to happen. Why on earth would the EU "allow" the UK to have the best of both worlds (you could say "having its cake and eating it).
Backwoodsman wrote:The majority of trade between Eire and the UK does not go through Northern Ireland. Border movements can easily be controlled by vehicle number recognition cameras.
But Brexit was supposed to be all about controlling immigration, at least to a large number of those voting out. With zero border that is impossible.
"Brian McDermott, with a wry smile, nods when asked if he remembers a specific incident which made him realise he was a prick. 'I do', he murmurs."
Joined: Aug 09 2011 Posts: 1906 Location: Deepest North Yorkshire Woodland
wrencat1873 wrote:At this point, it's not about winning or losing, it's about getting the best future for the UK, end of story. There is significant disagreement on what may be the best for the UK and Mrs May and her negotiating side appear to be clinging on to a "miracle" bespoke deal that will leave the UK with a free trade agreement AND the ability to negotiate directly with other Nations. As this would put the UK at an advantage over thew EU27, it isnt going to happen. Why on earth would the EU "allow" the UK to have the best of both worlds (you could say "having its cake and eating it).
The phrase "dream on" springs to mind.
Only a supreme optimist would imagine that the EU would allow us to remain in the customs union ,and conduct free trade deals with the rest of the world. You quite rightly state that would indeed be having our cake and eating it. It will never happen. The problem with Teresa May is she is a weak leader. She is terrified of of outlining any hard and fast proposals to the EU ,in case they refuse them. She is hoping that eventually the EU will come up with some sort of deal that will be acceptable to parliament. Dream on Teresa, although I have some sympathy for her ,as the majority of parliament and the House of Lords have never Fully supported brexit. Highlighted by jezzas treacherous visit to see Barnier in Brussels. Labour is hoping for a bad brexit deal. This would be blamed on the tories, thus paving the way for a labour government. A nightmare scenario a bad brexit deal and a socialist/Marxist government.
Backwoodsman wrote:Only a supreme optimist would imagine that the EU would allow us to remain in the customs union ,and conduct free trade deals with the rest of the world. You quite rightly state that would indeed be having our cake and eating it. It will never happen. The problem with Teresa May is she is a weak leader. She is terrified of of outlining any hard and fast proposals to the EU ,in case they refuse them. She is hoping that eventually the EU will come up with some sort of deal that will be acceptable to parliament. Dream on Teresa, although I have some sympathy for her ,as the majority of parliament and the House of Lords have never Fully supported brexit. Highlighted by jezzas treacherous visit to see Barnier in Brussels. Labour is hoping for a bad brexit deal. This would be blamed on the tories, thus paving the way for a labour government. A nightmare scenario a bad brexit deal and a socialist/Marxist government.
I agree. As usual, our 5 year parliament trumps any decisions that need to be taken for the long term prosperity of the country and trying to appease party members on such a toxic subject is nigh on impossible for the strongest of leaders and neither May or Corbyn fall into this category. I firmly believe that we will end up with a deal that suits neither side (of the Brexit debate) and just as a bonus, we will all be just a little bit poorer as a result. Although it was never going to happen, the Brexit "deal" should have been agreed on a cross party basis as it's, to important to be fought over by petty party political issues.
Joined: Aug 09 2011 Posts: 1906 Location: Deepest North Yorkshire Woodland
Have just read several articles and seen various comments regarding EFTA . At face value joining this group would seem to give us most of what we would require in leaving the EU.
Bullseye wrote:Should just go with the Norway option. No fuss.
Short of cancelling the whole mess - that does seem like the best compromise; although it would require Norway to vote for it, and they might have words to say about being shouldered aside as EEA top dogs. And then there's the small matter of free movement of people, which is a requirement of EEA membership - it's like a red rag to a xenophobic bull.
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
Oh please, does anyone with a reasonably functioning brain actually think the freedom of movement is a good idea? It's without doubt the most idiotic, illogical and damaging rule the EU enforces on its members, and a major reason for the leave vote. Yes, it brings in cheap labour and pretty baristas, but piles problems and pressure upon infrastructure and communities. Communities who never asked for it, and who we (as the UK) should actually be more concerned with protecting, than the right of Gheorghe from Romania to stroll in unannounced with his family in tow.
Free movement of goods, services and capital - yes, great idea, let's go ahead - but why movement of people needs to be tagged still baffles me. Amongst a relatively small EU of reasonably equal countries, maybe, but not when the EU have been furiously bringing in members leading to massive floods of migration in one direction.
So, unless the EU astonish us all and allow Article 112 of the EEA Agreement to be implemented, FoM is one of the primary reasons the Norway model isn't a realistic option. Another is that that we're not Norway, we're much bigger and different in terms of population and economy. Nope, I'd rather we just remained as full members - and I'd sooner be castrated with papercuts than do that under current EU structure.
Cronus wrote:Oh please, does anyone with a reasonably functioning brain actually think the freedom of movement is a good idea? It's without doubt the most idiotic, illogical and damaging rule the EU enforces on its members, and a major reason for the leave vote. Yes, it brings in cheap labour and pretty baristas, but piles problems and pressure upon infrastructure and communities. Communities who never asked for it, and who we (as the UK) should actually be more concerned with protecting, than the right of Gheorghe from Romania to stroll in unannounced with his family in tow.
Wow - that escalated quickly.
We've been down this route before - but you do know that the facts simply don't support your argument, right? Infrastructure and services are not under pressure because of immigration, but because they've been systematically underfunded due to the austerity programme; and once again, EU migrants are net contributors to the UK economy.
I know we're in an era when people believe that their opinions are better than facts, but being loud and forceful doesn't make you any less wrong.
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