Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
bren2k wrote:So here's a thing - a super lethal, internationally prohibited nerve agent, so deadly that exposure to even a trace amount can be lethal, causing a dramatic, painful death - was deployed on the streets of Salisbury, and 2 people are critically ill as a result; none of the public, police, Dr's and nurses, or any bystanders or other people who came into contact with them has been affected - apart from one police officer, who has made a speedy and full recovery.
How come?
I've seen reports of up to 38 who required treatment, including a second police officer. Fortunately it seems most displayed very minor symptoms and probably some none at all. I wouldn't say DS Nick Bailey recovered 'quickly' - he was hospitalised for almost 3 weeks and was classed as critical for some time. He may continue to be affected for a long time.
It now appears DS Bailey fell ill after visiting the Skripal home, and not from contact with them at the park bench as first thought. It's therefore likely they were poisoned at home and while that means no-one else was exposed to the moment of attack, it's possibly some of the agent may have left the house with them. It would also explain why the police have examined their route so closely.
Given the preferred method of application is aerosol or powder, their clothes could easily have been contaminated and therefore no chances can be taken, especially as Novichok appears designed to linger, unlike almost all other nerve gases which dissipate quickly. Novichok agents are heavier than air so would settle fairly quickly, reducing the chance of being inhaled. The main risk is from touching a contaminated area. That said, we're talking miniscule amounts so you would be incredibly unlucky to touch it. Novichok dissipates quickly with water, which is why much of Salisbury was hosed down.
Vladimir Uglev, one of the scientists who developed Novichek, became ill twice from contact with a trace amount. It is indeed a highly lethal substance but still requires a minimum amount and successful application to kill. It's not the case that any contact means death. DS Bailey appears to have had contact with a trace amount quite some time after the attack and was still severely affected.
As for 'second' responders, well, paramedics and indeed doctors and nurses (and police) wear gloves when handling patients these days, thus vastly reducing their chance of contamination.
bren2k wrote:So here's a thing - a super lethal, internationally prohibited nerve agent, so deadly that exposure to even a trace amount can be lethal, causing a dramatic, painful death - was deployed on the streets of Salisbury, and 2 people are critically ill as a result; none of the public, police, Dr's and nurses, or any bystanders or other people who came into contact with them has been affected - apart from one police officer, who has made a speedy and full recovery.
How come?
I've seen reports of up to 38 who required treatment, including a second police officer. Fortunately it seems most displayed very minor symptoms and probably some none at all. I wouldn't say DS Nick Bailey recovered 'quickly' - he was hospitalised for almost 3 weeks and was classed as critical for some time. He may continue to be affected for a long time.
It now appears DS Bailey fell ill after visiting the Skripal home, and not from contact with them at the park bench as first thought. It's therefore likely they were poisoned at home and while that means no-one else was exposed to the moment of attack, it's possibly some of the agent may have left the house with them. It would also explain why the police have examined their route so closely.
Given the preferred method of application is aerosol or powder, their clothes could easily have been contaminated and therefore no chances can be taken, especially as Novichok appears designed to linger, unlike almost all other nerve gases which dissipate quickly. Novichok agents are heavier than air so would settle fairly quickly, reducing the chance of being inhaled. The main risk is from touching a contaminated area. That said, we're talking miniscule amounts so you would be incredibly unlucky to touch it. Novichok dissipates quickly with water, which is why much of Salisbury was hosed down.
Vladimir Uglev, one of the scientists who developed Novichek, became ill twice from contact with a trace amount. It is indeed a highly lethal substance but still requires a minimum amount and successful application to kill. It's not the case that any contact means death. DS Bailey appears to have had contact with a trace amount quite some time after the attack and was still severely affected.
As for 'second' responders, well, paramedics and indeed doctors and nurses (and police) wear gloves when handling patients these days, thus vastly reducing their chance of contamination.
On that point - Stephen Davis, a consultant in emergency medicine at the Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust, has written over the weekend:
"Further to your report (Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment) may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved."
On that point - Stephen Davis, a consultant in emergency medicine at the Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust, has written over the weekend:
"Further to your report (Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment) may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved."
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 17146 Location: Olicana - Home of 'Vark Slayer
Cronus wrote:So tell me again how a British right-wing group were able to manufacture, handle, transport, mix and administer a Novichok agent and why they attacked a long-forgotten Russian? Any evidence would be good. You know, just a teeny bit. Evidence, not theories made-up in your head or read on some balmpot website.
tigertot wrote:I don't think Putin is involved (nor do any of the academic or military experts I have heard) though I think the most likely explanation is that agents allied to Putin who can act with impunity did carry it out or arranged it.
Keep trying to divert attention from your embarrassing contradictions. Wait, are you Teresa May?
“At last, a real, Tory budget,” Daily Mail 24/9/22 "It may be that the honourable gentleman doesn't like mixing with his own side … but we on this side have a more convivial, fraternal spirit." Jacob Rees-Mogg 21/10/21
A member of the Guardian-reading, tofu-eating wokerati.
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
tigertot wrote:Keep trying to divert attention from your embarrassing contradictions. Wait, are you Teresa May?
tigertot wrote:I don't think it is beyond imagination that establishment/right wing forces within this country, not directly linked to Government, saw it as a Falklands moment for an unpopular & clueless PM, or an opportunity to return to a cold war.
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
bren2k wrote:On that point - Stephen Davis, a consultant in emergency medicine at the Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust, has written over the weekend:
"Further to your report (Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment) may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved."
It's either amazingly lucky - or something else.
I find that odd given the reports of a second officer needing treatment for mild symptoms, although I did hear suggestions members of the public attended hospital mostly out of fear. Anyway, if that's the case then it's good news.
As I said in my other post, the suggestion is that the Skripols were poisoned at home given it appears this is where DS Bailey was also poisoned. If that is indeed the case, any of the substance that left the house with on their clothing or skin would probably be in trace amounts, and anyone else would be hugely unlucky to come into contact with it and even unluckier to become ill.
That said, even tiny amounts can cause some damage and for that reason the painstaking clean-up and decontamination continues.
Huge steps from a number of nations this afternoon with 16 countries evicting 106 diplomats. Of course several on here believe so many nations would take such strong action on the basis of 'no evidence' - especially those bordering Russia. The solidarity being shown is extraordinary and a huge surprise to the Russians.
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 31939 Location: The Corridor of Uncertainty
There are always lots of confused reports following incidents like this, especially in the first 24-48hrs. Read any debrief report from a major incident and there are lots of examples.
"If you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them," - Wayne Bennett.
Cronus wrote:I find that odd given the reports of a second officer needing treatment for mild symptoms, although I did hear suggestions members of the public attended hospital mostly out of fear. Anyway, if that's the case then it's good news.
As I said in my other post, the suggestion is that the Skripols were poisoned at home given it appears this is where DS Bailey was also poisoned. If that is indeed the case, any of the substance that left the house with on their clothing or skin would probably be in trace amounts, and anyone else would be hugely unlucky to come into contact with it and even unluckier to become ill.
That said, even tiny amounts can cause some damage and for that reason the painstaking clean-up and decontamination continues.
Huge steps from a number of nations this afternoon with 16 countries evicting 106 diplomats. Of course several on here believe so many nations would take such strong action on the basis of 'no evidence' - especially those bordering Russia. The solidarity being shown is extraordinary and a huge surprise to the Russians.
I’m not saying you are right or wrong. You always give a good write up of what you believe, however, I will go back to an earlier point. Iraq. The western world dived in backed up with evidence. I still think there is something fishy about it but I’m not privy to whatever the evidence supposedly is
tigertot wrote:Keep trying to divert attention from your embarrassing contradictions. Wait, are you Teresa May?
yawn
we get it, you don't agree with anything the Conservative government do. That's right, GOVERNMENT, you know, the people that WON the election that the MAJORITY support.
this tells you what kind of people you're associated with...
tigertot wrote:Keep trying to divert attention from your embarrassing contradictions. Wait, are you Teresa May?
yawn
we get it, you don't agree with anything the Conservative government do. That's right, GOVERNMENT, you know, the people that WON the election that the MAJORITY support.
we get it, you don't agree with anything the Conservative government do. That's right, GOVERNMENT, you know, the people that WON the election that the MAJORITY support.
this tells you what kind of people you're associated with...
The most terrifying thing about some conservatives is their complete lack of any doubts or capacity for critical analysis.
Needless to say, the MAJORITY didn't support the Conservatives. Not even close to it.
PCollinson1990 wrote:yawn
we get it, you don't agree with anything the Conservative government do. That's right, GOVERNMENT, you know, the people that WON the election that the MAJORITY support.
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