Joined: Jun 28 2002 Posts: 4961 Location: Outside your remit
Cronus wrote:Oh look the usual suspects waving their racism cards.
Let's get a few things straight. Sal mentioned Rotherham (in the context of integration) and wrencat immediately jumps on it crying about an 'anti-muslim/immigration story'. Others follow suit. There it is straight away - no acceptance that a specific cultural issue exists - instead turning on the person who mentioned it. Curiously, pretty much what happened to those who first attempted to report the issue of Asian grooming gangs.
Fact is, you're all eager as hell to jump all over the issue of Catholic/pop star child abuse - why don't we see the same enthusiasm where the predominantly Pakistani grooming gangs are concerned? I think we all know the answer.
For the hard of reading, I've already acknowledged child abuse exists elsewhere. I've even talked about it - the feeling of untouchability within the church, for example. I haven't ignored anything, but we were talking about the specific issue of Asian grooming gangs - something with particular roots, particular causes and a particular cultural background. And like it or not, the skin colour of the victims was a big factor to the abusers. Uncomfortable facts certain people can't accept.
Yes, 'we' are well aware of it now and things have improved, but that doesn't do much for the thousands of girls (and boys) who suffered for years thanks to a culture of overriding political correctness and fear of 'racial tension'. The culture that - rather than put the abuse to an end and help those kids - preferred to tip-toe around the issue of race and religion. That disgusts me. I couldn't care less what race or religion the abusers were, but it became a huge issue thanks to the Police/CPS/Social Services deciding it was more important than stopping sexual abuse of children on a massive scale.
'But...but...but Catholics/pop stars/others were at it too'...just doesn't wash, not matter how many times it's repeated. Wring those hands any more and your fingers will blister.
So what's your solution? What should we be doing more that we aren't doing now?
Joined: Jun 28 2002 Posts: 4961 Location: Outside your remit
Cronus wrote:I'm not offering one, it's the attitude that helped the abuse persist and ignored the victims that irks.
Though if I had to, it would simply be for a race/religion-blind response to reports of child abuse. Hopefully we're already there.
Yeah I think everyone agrees that that was a bad position to get into but like I say. That particular taboo is long gone and we are arresting these animals and everyone involved with vulnerable adults is trained to recognise and report this kind of behaviour.
I just don't understand the use in continually using it as a stick to beat the bigger community with. They would tell you these men are not behaving in accordance with their religion. The Manc bomber was banned from his mosque and reported for his views.
Joined: Jan 15 2007 Posts: 11924 Location: Secret Hill Top Lair. V.2
TrinityIHC wrote: and everyone involved with vulnerable adults is trained to recognise and report this kind of behaviour.
Are they?
I've read a lot of your posts and I pretty much agree with all of them, I obviously don't know what you do for a job, but from my experience (and I won't / can't go further than that) I would say we're a long, long way away from that.
As to the further debate, I struggle to see how more integration between the people and cultures of our country would be a bad thing when what we appear to be saying is that the problems leading to horrendous abuse have been caused by a lack of understanding and mistrust of each others cultures and religions.
People are people. We need to find a way to share common ground. The people that are in this country are in this country. Isn't in all our common good to learn about and respect each other?
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle.
Cronus wrote:I'm not offering one, it's the attitude that helped the abuse persist and ignored the victims that irks.
Though if I had to, it would simply be for a race/religion-blind response to reports of child abuse. Hopefully we're already there.
I would hope that this is an issue on which the right and the left could agree; where we tend not to agree however, is the language and rhetoric that tends to come from the right when this kind of filthy crime comes to light - it very quickly becomes an excuse for the kind of casual, dog whistle racism that fuels hate crime, and makes minority communities feel even more disenfranchised and alienated and by extension, less likely to engage with the police or social services. Practically a party political broadcast for the BNP.
FWIW - I'm a lefty snowflake - but I can agree without fear that a disproportionate amount of Pakistani men have been involved in this kind of case; when you look at the detail however, the evidence suggests that their motive is criminal and has nothing to do with religion; they are pimping these girls out to other criminals. There is also evidence to suggest that many of them had a belief that they would not be prosecuted by the police, because the police would be afraid of accusations of racism - which turned out to be true, and is damning. Thankfully, we seem to be past that now.
Joined: Jun 28 2002 Posts: 4961 Location: Outside your remit
Sandro II Terrorista wrote:Are they?
I've read a lot of your posts and I pretty much agree with all of them, I obviously don't know what you do for a job, but from my experience (and I won't / can't go further than that) I would say we're a long, long way away from that.
As to the further debate, I struggle to see how more integration between the people and cultures of our country would be a bad thing when what we appear to be saying is that the problems leading to horrendous abuse have been caused by a lack of understanding and mistrust of each others cultures and religions.
People are people. We need to find a way to share common ground. The people that are in this country are in this country. Isn't in all our common good to learn about and respect each other?
It's basically been rolled into safeguarding legislation, which requires all statutory, 3rd sector and voluntary organisations which work with vulnerable individuals to complete training every year and update policies as they are directed by local authorities safeguarding teams.
So any police officer, front line NHS staff, social worker and even such as people who run night shelters n soup kitchens etc are required to undertake safeguarding training.
Most areas I have worked across it's been a single point of access where all safeguarding reports go to and then are distributed to the correct service such as police or social services etc. They also set up specific task groups to deal with issues coming out of serious case reviews and reports etc
TrinityIHC wrote:It's basically been rolled into safeguarding legislation, which requires all statutory, 3rd sector and voluntary organisations which work with vulnerable individuals to complete training every year and update policies as they are directed by local authorities safeguarding teams.
So any police officer, front line NHS staff, social worker and even such as people who run night shelters n soup kitchens etc are required to undertake safeguarding training.
Most areas I have worked across it's been a single point of access where all safeguarding reports go to and then are distributed to the correct service such as police or social services etc. They also set up specific task groups to deal with issues coming out of serious case reviews and reports etc
Add to that, anyone who works with children in any capacity, and all social care staff, no matter how junior; the SG system is actually quite robust, but it depends on action being taken when reports are made, without fear or favour - which clearly hasn't happened in the past.
Cronus wrote:I'm not offering one, it's the attitude that helped the abuse persist and ignored the victims that irks.
Though if I had to, it would simply be for a race/religion-blind response to reports of child abuse. Hopefully we're already there.
Anyone who works in this field recognises that there were times when a failure to acknowledge some of the racial elements was not addressed.
Unfortunately it is the bit that everyone concentrates on.
However what it tends to be forgottten was the very anti working class attitude towards the victims.
They were just working class slags , "what do you expect from council house chavs etc".
There was also a a very negative attitude based on sexism. None of which seems to be developed by those who highlight the organised abuse of young girls in the inner cities.
It is like meat eaters and the hunting fraternity who campaign against halal meat. You need to look at the motivation behind the headlines and the agenda that is being pushed.
Huddersfield Giants 2013 over achievers
Huddersfield Giants 2014 under achievers ??????????
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
Reports of more attacks in London.
Mixed talk of gunfire, stabbings and a van mowing people down around Borough Market, London Bridge and possibly Vauxhall. One chap says he saw armed police firing at someone - fingers crossed there are no civilian fatalities and the only gunfire is armed police giving some bstard his ticket to the 72 virgins.
Joined: Jan 30 2005 Posts: 7152 Location: one day closer to death
Durham Giant wrote:Anyone who works in this field recognises that there were times when a failure to acknowledge some of the racial elements was not addressed.
Unfortunately it is the bit that everyone concentrates on.
However what it tends to be forgottten was the very anti working class attitude towards the victims.
They were just working class slags , "what do you expect from council house chavs etc".
Yes, all of which I've already mentioned if you care to read back.
BTW, don't take the BBC drama as gospel. As good as it was, they skirted around the elephant in the room. Yes, the 'white trash' aspect was a factor but don't underestimate the part fear of being labelled racist or anti-Islam played in the failure to take action earlier.
And the reasons people focus on the race aspect is that this is a very specific and widespread issue of (gangs of) Pakistani men preying on underage white girls, and because it was allowed to go unprosecuted for so long in part due to race.Fact is, the race of the victims is a key motivating and indeed titillating factor to the perpetrators. Anyone simply placing it alongside other cases of child abuse is missing or denying the point, which is that there exists a specific cultural problem that shouldn't simply be lumped in with other areas of child abuse.
Good lord, when even a hugely left-wing Muslim commentator at The Indy is acknowledging the problem, you know there must be a problem. Well worth a read.
Durham Giant wrote:Anyone who works in this field recognises that there were times when a failure to acknowledge some of the racial elements was not addressed.
Unfortunately it is the bit that everyone concentrates on.
However what it tends to be forgottten was the very anti working class attitude towards the victims.
They were just working class slags , "what do you expect from council house chavs etc".
Yes, all of which I've already mentioned if you care to read back.
BTW, don't take the BBC drama as gospel. As good as it was, they skirted around the elephant in the room. Yes, the 'white trash' aspect was a factor but don't underestimate the part fear of being labelled racist or anti-Islam played in the failure to take action earlier.
And the reasons people focus on the race aspect is that this is a very specific and widespread issue of (gangs of) Pakistani men preying on underage white girls, and because it was allowed to go unprosecuted for so long in part due to race.Fact is, the race of the victims is a key motivating and indeed titillating factor to the perpetrators. Anyone simply placing it alongside other cases of child abuse is missing or denying the point, which is that there exists a specific cultural problem that shouldn't simply be lumped in with other areas of child abuse.
Good lord, when even a hugely left-wing Muslim commentator at The Indy is acknowledging the problem, you know there must be a problem. Well worth a read.
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