Juan Cornetto wrote:Because the sun might shine today does not mean it will shine tomorrow. It shows a random example that does not take into consideration other important factors. In all Wakefield's wins since their change of coach their main two halfbacks (with Finn a successful kicker too) have been major factors as indeed they were when they beat us by 4 points.
Yet you still were happy to have both Sutcliffe and McGuire play together in the halfbacks! I cannot follow your logic Rhinoms. Sutcliffe would need to be along side Cooper Cronk to be effective as a 6. IMO he quite obviously should not play in a pivotal position (apart from perhaps fullback) as he is not a decision maker or a game changer. This does not mean he should not figure in the squad. I have said many times his skill set is better suited to centre and he has been useful as a bench utility player too.
Ok then for which position would you have recruited a leader and goal kicker.
What is you definition of numerous? and did you ever consider that by giving credit Mac is showing motivational management skills? It is quite usual in professional sport for the coach to allow the captain, senior players and assistant coaches to run parts of training sessions to give imput and practice among other things decision making and on field leadership. This in no way means Mac's role in our success is diminished as you have tried to insinuate.
Come on now Rhinoms he is hardly likely to say to the media that he is disappointed with the signings is he? He has to tow the company line and has to try and motivate the players is has got.
Who is responsible for the recruitment at Rhinos and the purse strings? Now I do not know the conversations between BM and GH regarding recruitment matters and neither does anyone else. So to keep asking for the coach to be sacked without this knowledge is unfair. Other clubs have recruited some quality at halfbacks in the same timescale and if necessary we should have been prepared to use the marquee budget if necessary to try and replace Sinfield's role in the side.
Now I do agree that despite the very serious and ongoing injury list (which I think is worse than most other clubs) we still should have collected more wins and put on better performances. But this has been down to the other major factors which is the loss of form of so many players and in particular the senior ones. Again form comes and goes with experience players and novices alike and then eventually magically returns too.
So I have not said it is simply a lack of quality at halfback but an accumulation of several factors which include: disruption in pre season training, long term injuries to key players, additional serious injuries in training and from the first two games onwards including our new captain and creative half back that meant we could not field a settled side. On top of this we had poor form from senior players and a failure to replace our main game manager at half back. These in themselves should not have been game breakers but when added together have become a recipe for disaster. I believe most if not all coaches would have struggled in the same way that BM has struggle with these particular problems.
Why I keep highlighting our failure to recruit a quality half back as a major problem is because this has now unbalanced our squad. Although McGuire has improves his all round game he still is essentially a runner whose first instinct is to make a break. Burrow and Sutcliffe are both runners too. So all these type of players need a creative passer as do the rest of the team. Lilley shows signs of being creative but it is asking a lot to come in and run the side. This major weakness has been cruelly exposed after we lost McGuire in the first game. This weakness has been proven with the complete failure of our attack which should have won us at least four of the close games we have lost and had that happened we would be sitting in 5th place now without all the panicking.
To be fair to McGuire it seems he still isn't fit yet but without a creative player our shape will never look right. Confidence is low but there were some better signs I felt against Salford. When Burrow went to acting half back we did at least cross the line three times and on another day would have scored three and won the game. Form has to return soon and with the all elusive confidence and momentum and then you get some run of the ball too. For a new coach to come in just when things are due to change seems unfair.
Or the ability to play to a game plan. I am sure dropping the ball over the line or dropping a high bomb was not in the game plan.
Their main goal kicking play-maker half back has played most if not all their games this season so not a fair comparison. Had we had McGuire all season I think we would have won at least enough to be ahead of them.
My logic as you put it is straight forward we failed to recruit at least 1on field Leader that could come from a number of positions it doesn't have to be a HB. Look at ST's for e.g lead by Roby & Wilkin. Re-Cas Their go to FB who plays as an extra HB has been missing as has Roberts Millington Shenton Moors Holmes plenty of their "big hitters" so a more than fair comparison. Wakey also missing a lot of their bigger players but look organised. You also seem happy to use Mags injury as an excuse yet dont afford Suttcliffe that same courtesy he's had a serious knee injury had no pre-season & is thrown into a pivotal role amongst an iut of form rudderless shambles. The Coach/staff are a major part of that & as with the team have failed to come up with any sort of basic gameplan or shape. Also GH doesn't just say we're signing A,B or C either EVERY Coach has had an input in that process.
I really am rhinoms and haven't stolen his Avatar!
Gotcha wrote:Nobody on here backs youngsters development more than me over the years. But sometimes you have to realise you are flogging a dead horse.
We don't produce world class halfs because of the way we develop them, not because of writing them off after a few games. The issue is from leaving junior rugby, where they are free to develop skills, into a set way of performing when they get to professional clubs, that is what has made this area of our game go backwards. To be fair to some clubs, and Leeds are actually one of them this season at academy level, they are now actually turning round and not including the halfs in the robotic ways, but actually telling them to play what they see in front of them. This is how skills develop.
We have had better halfs than Sutcliffe in our systems over the last decade who have been and gone, and actually not even playing at a level anymore. He is completely different to what you are suggesting.
Your Tomkins argument makes no sense at all. A fullback nowadays is an extra half, his game is developing exactly the same whether he was at 1 or 6. That is the modern game. Look at O'Brien at Salford, has he been written off too?
And by the way, I have written off a damn sit more Aussies at this club than I have homegrown. I meen good god, in two pages I am accused of slating not giving youngsters a chance previously, to now getting slated for not backing youngsters.
People say fullbacks are an extra half but in reality they have much less influence in attack and dont have to be nearly as creative. Tomkins is a prime example of a young half who had a brilliant running game and a pretty good ability to read a defence. But at the age of 21 (sutcliffe's age btw) they decided to move him to fullback where he would have more space and less thinking to do instead of developing his ability to read defences and his kicking game.
In australia they do the opposite, players who are young come in with similar attributes to tomkins who play at fullback for a few years to adapt to the NRL but are then moved to 6 to give them MORE responsibility and develop the other aspects of being a half, such as Milford and Widdop. And we still unsuprisingly cant beat the Aussies or NZ when they have their first choice halves. They back their talented fullbacks and give them more responsibilty and we take responsibility off our talented halves.
Joined: Dec 22 2001 Posts: 31945 Location: The Corridor of Uncertainty
Your organiser type of halfback is a rare beast as it is but even rarer now because teams are making calls on players at the age of 19 so many potential players are being lost before they've had a chance to finish their development.
There's been some discussion about this on the Bulls forum. There hasn't been a single decent British organising halfback to come through at that age since Bobbie Goulding. Almost all the British organising halfbacks of the past 10-15 years didn't become regulars until their early 20s. Deacon was 23, Long was 24.
I've a theory that it could be down to size. Those smaller lads aren't ready physically at 19 so get fewer chances unless they're some kind of prodigy. Even then they get moved e.g. to fullback so they're less of a defensive liability (Tomkins) or moved to be an impact player/dummy half (Burrow).
"If you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them," - Wayne Bennett.
Joined: Jul 02 2015 Posts: 335 Location: The EU (for 2 years at least)
Juan, did Hardaker diddle your wife & is BMD your favourite uncle?
The trouble with too much favouritism &/or dislike is that it clouds judgements & encourages people to disregard your opinion on the grounds that it is the same old one-sided fare.
Hardaker is an infantile playboy (he wishes) who has an excellent running game, outstanding one-on-one defense & good handling of the high ball. These were the attributes which brought him the MOS award in 2015. His linking in the offensive line & passing are his weaknesses & he will have to improve on these aspects to become a truly great FB. He, like 95% of his colleagues, are suffering from poor form at the moment.
McDermott has shown that he can take a group of proven winners & keep them motivated enough to continue their winning ways. He has also introduced a sprinkling of talent (mostly from overseas or the academy) over his tenure with great success. The problem was always going to be when the proven winners & leaders started to disappear. He HAS had terrible luck with injuries the season so far, but there is nothing in the demeanour of the players to suggest that they know what to do about their current plight. Has BMD identified the CORRECT players to take on the leadership role? Has he identified the CORRECT game plans to see us through this tough time? Has he got the necessary leadership skills himself to impart wisdom/knowledge/inspiration to his troops? Only GH & the players would be able to answer these questions, but the longer this spell goes on the more people (myself included) come to the conclusion that the answers may be NO.
It is no good just crying about our terrible injury list, or saying "Does BMD tell his players to drop the ball/give away penalties etc?". He is a supposed to be the leader & inspiration & I don't see that inherent in our play.
Many people said that once KS & JP left, that would be the acid test for BMD (or any coach for that matter). He hasn't started very well.
Joined: Feb 27 2002 Posts: 18060 Location: On the road
Have you seen Hardaker under the high ball lately - he spends more time shouting at Handley to catch it than actually attempting to catch it himself.
He puts others in a tough position because their approach to the catch is not ideal because Hardaker is in the ideal place and should grow some and catch the thing.
Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.
Joined: May 25 2006 Posts: 8893 Location: Garth's Darkplace.
Bullseye wrote:Your organiser type of halfback is a rare beast as it is but even rarer now because teams are making calls on players at the age of 19 so many potential players are being lost before they've had a chance to finish their development.
This is what I believe. At 19 young halves are mainly acting instinctively, that can only take you so far. Experience takes a few years longer to develop. Bobby Goulding was Leeds best player when we handed him to Saints, he'd developed a lot from his early days at Widnes and he was just ready to really kick on.
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Joined: Jul 02 2015 Posts: 335 Location: The EU (for 2 years at least)
Sal Paradise wrote:Have you seen Hardaker under the high ball lately - he spends more time shouting at Handley to catch it than actually attempting to catch it himself.
He puts others in a tough position because their approach to the catch is not ideal because Hardaker is in the ideal place and should grow some and catch the thing.
Totally agree - how can someone who, in previous seasons, has been so consistently good under the high ball, become so poor this season?
How can someone like Garbutt go from charging it in & making good metres one season to being powder puff (except for one or two games) this season?
How can someone, who was just emerging into the team, put Saints & a couple of others to the sword & look like a genuinely good young British HB last season, then go to looking like he doesn't know what to do the next season? (Although a really bad injury has played a part)
How can Ablett be sound in defense over many seasons & then allow chasms to appear for opposition players to walk through this?
How can Watkins look like he would comfortably fit in the NRL last couple of seasons, & now look like he would struggle to get a game for Batley?
& on & on......
Why have so many good/excellent SL players all had such a downturn in form at exactly the same time?
Joined: Sep 12 2010 Posts: 11412 Location: Behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas.
Sal Paradise wrote:Have you seen Hardaker under the high ball lately - he spends more time shouting at Handley to catch it than actually attempting to catch it himself.
Happened last year with him and Handley too. His communication is fine with Briscoe and Hall but not Handley and it's not all on the youngster.
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