William Eve wrote:Reference to a player who never played international RL (just touted as opposed to being selected) as evidence of the lowest point in our game is an interesting example of agenda-driven historical revisionism on your part.
My personal view is that in more recent times (1988 to 1994) is the only period when we were genuinely competitive at international level.
As for the nadir? It's a toss-up between (1978 to 1988)... AND... (2006 to 2016).
In terms of results against Australia, (1978 to 1988) represented a period of 3,534 days between victories against them. An 18-14 win at Odsal on 05/11/1978 - then 15 successive defeats - followed by the famous 26-12 win in Sydney on 09/07/1988.
(2006 to 2016) currently represents a period of 3,446 days since our last victory, a 23-12 scoreline against Australia in Sydney on 04/11/2006. The next time we play Australia will be late-October or early-November by which time the number of days since a victory against them will have surpassed the 3,534 days without a win circa (1978 to 1988).
In terms of losing streaks V Australia...
(1978 to 1988) 15 successive defeats Points scored 118 Points conceded 419 Average Scoreline: 8-28 Average margin of defeat: 20 points
(2006 to 2016) 9 successive defeats Points scored 120 Points conceded 301 Average Scoreline: 13-33 Average margin of defeat: 20 points
Interesting selections (1978 to 1988) John Dalgreen, Dave Heron, David Barends, Peter Smith, Neil Courtney, Les Gorley, Keith Mumby, Des Foy, Mick Worrall, David Hobbs, Chris Burton, Keith Rayne, Neil Holding, Tony Marchant, Barrie Ledger, Kevin Rayne, Paul Medley, Kevin Dick, Chris Camilleri, Roy Holdstock, Eddie Szymala, Ronnie Duane, Alan Rathbone, Dick Jaziewicz, Stuart Donlan, Mick Flanagan, Andy Dannatt, Neil James, David Creasser.
Interesting selections (2006 to 2016) Gareth Raynor, Richard Horne, Lee Gilmour, Rob Burrow, Jon Wilkin, Lee Smith, Mark Calderwood, Ade Gardner, Maurie Fa'asavalu, Kevin Sinfield, Paul Sykes, Mickey Higham, Jamie Langley, Kirk Yeaman, Tony Clubb, Darrell Griffin, Kevin Brown, Ryan Atkins, Ryan Bailey, Carl Ablett, Chris Heighington, Matty Smith, Danny McGuire, Liam Farrell, Joe Westerman, Leroy Cudjoe, Andy Coley, Ben Jones-Bishop, Martin Aspinwall.
I remain in the undecided camp. Two forgetful era's of undistinguished and embarrassing international performances and results.
There's some cause for cringe in that list from the last decade. But there are some who rightly got selected on form, some who never should have been picked. It really highlights to me how far we've come in everywhere but the halves. Remember Smith, Calderwood and Gardner and compare to Watkins,Hall, Manfredi, Burgess et al.
Also could be my mistake, I can't recall BJB playing for England.
The Magic Rat wrote:Surely the main factor is the amount of times the teams have faced each other. 15 against 9 is quite a difference. What classifies as an interesting selection?
I would argue the main factor is the trend of losses throughout along with the average 20 point margin of those defeats during both era's surely? We also faced Australia away from home on more occasions than we did at home during that (1978-1988) period.
Barrie's Glass Eye wrote:There's some cause for cringe in that list from the last decade. But there are some who rightly got selected on form, some who never should have been picked. It really highlights to me how far we've come in everywhere but the halves. Remember Smith, Calderwood and Gardner and compare to Watkins,Hall, Manfredi, Burgess et al.
Also could be my mistake, I can't recall BJB playing for England.
BJB was among the 24 players selected for the England squad in the 2011 Four Nations.
Watkins, Hall, Manfredi and Burgess are a step up from Gardner, Calderwood and Smith but they lag considerably behind the likes of Robinson, Offiah, Newlove, Connolly, Davies, etc, who were around during the pre-SL competitive era (1988-1994).
Halves remain a problem throughout but definitely worse than they've ever been right now IMO. Worse than (1978 to 1988) era. T. Myler, Holmes, Millward, Topliss, Woods, etc, were better than we've got now.
Schofield, Edwards, Gregory, Fox, Hulme (1988 to 1994) was about as good as it got for us in the halves.
Joined: Sep 09 2007 Posts: 11658 Location: Can you see me?
William Eve wrote:BJB was among the 24 players selected for the England squad in the 2011 Four Nations.
Watkins, Hall, Manfredi and Burgess are a step up from Gardner, Calderwood and Smith but they lag considerably behind the likes of Robinson, Offiah, Newlove, Connolly, Davies, etc, who were around during the pre-SL competitive era (1988-1994).
Halves remain a problem throughout but definitely worse than they've ever been right now IMO. Worse than (1978 to 1988) era. T. Myler, Holmes, Millward, Topliss, Woods, etc, were better than we've got now.
Schofield, Edwards, Gregory, Fox, Hulme (1988 to 1994) was about as good as it got for us in the halves.
Calderwood was a necessity rather than a 'first chioce'. IIRC he was in the Scotland team and dropped them like a shitty stick as soon as he got the England call up.
Joined: Aug 09 2011 Posts: 1906 Location: Deepest North Yorkshire Woodland
As far as I am concerned the season is a write off. I always thought the season would be a rebuilding exercise , so never envisaged winning anything. My main concern is that we may not have the foundation in the squad to build on for next season. Any hasty and wrong decisions embarked upon this season may set us back years. So the club and Brian Mac has to be very wary indeed. The transition can be achieved. Tony Smith looks like he has assembled a trophy winning squad over at warrington. A large section of the wire support had been calling for his head over the last few seasons. Obviously the same section of supporter have shut up now that he looks to have a decent team.
Not quite a write off but I feel that now we have no chance of getting in the top 4 then we would benefit from been in the middle 8's as it would be a less strenuous end to the season in terms of intensity and that may give us a chance of defending the C Cup and ending the season as soon as possible so we can start afresh and get a good pre-season in.
vbfg wrote:Count the converted try differences between the scores, not the points difference. At least half your first period was the era of three point tries.
If the points difference is the same in the four point era then it's better now than it was.
Less than half actually.
7 out of 15 tests (1978 to 1988) were played under 3 point try rules.
The margin difference becomes 22 points.
Prior to the last fixture in 2014 when we only lost 12-16, the average score was 13-36 and an average points difference of 23. Prior to the RLWC2013 fixture when we lost 20-28, the average score was 13-37 and an average points difference of 24. Perhaps the recent increase in the number of our players competing in the NRL is responsible for that more competitive trend of late?
(1978 to 1988) 15 successive defeats Points scored 123 Points conceded 453 Average Scoreline: 8-30 Average margin of defeat: 22 points Tries scored: 17 (Avg: 1.13 per game) Tries conceded: 71 (Avg: 4.73 per game)
(2006 to 2016) 9 successive defeats Points scored 120 Points conceded 301 Average Scoreline: 13-33 Average margin of defeat: 20 points Tries scored: 22 (Avg: 2.44 per game) Tries conceded: 53 (Avg: 5.89 per game)
(GOLDEN ERA 1988 to 1995) 5 wins, 8 defeats Points scored 158 Points conceded 207 Average Scoreline: 12-16 Average margin of defeat: 4 points Tries scored: 24 (Avg: 1.85 per game) Tries conceded: 34 (Avg: 2.62 per game)
V Australia (SL-era 1997-2015) Played 27, 20 at home, 7 away 4 wins, 23 defeats Points scored 361 Points conceded 785 Average Scoreline: 13-29 Average margin of defeat: 16 points
V Australia (Pre-SL-era 1979-1995) Played 27, 15 at home, 12 away 5 wins, 22 defeats Points scored 273 Points conceded 633 Average Scoreline: 10-23 Average margin of defeat: 13 points
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