FlexWheeler wrote:Awful lot of contruction gone in wigan, not many finished buildings though.
To be fair given the turnover of players since Wane took over an LLS, league and cup double and 2 consecutive grand finals isn't a bad transition, i presume Saints must have won everything during that time given how bad a job Wane has done.
Grimmy wrote:Don't shoot I'm unarmed! FYI I was a nervous wreck before and during the game. If we had won I would have given him his dues, and have never called for a change before now. I don't think he is a terrible coach or anything but he isn't getting the results despite (IMO) having all the resources required to do so. I do think he would be under far more pressure but for a ridiculously easy cup run in '13. Ask Saints fans whether just getting to finals is good enough.
Would you agree he needs to go if we don't win either major trophy once again next year?
Good question. The answer is, it depends. If we play good rugby, are consistent, get in the top two, get to Wembley, but don't win anything I'd be tempted to stick with him. On the other hand if we come fifth or below, but won at Wembley I'm not sure. For me winning a trophy isn't the be all and end all. Judging someone on trophies alone is too simplistic.
It won't come to that anyway. We will win the treble next season.
Keeping us all happy (except the usual suspects who will think it is all down to Madge)
"Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try No hell below us, above us only pie"(John Ono Lennon born Wigan 1940)
I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
sergeant pepper wrote:That's the million dollar question.
No one ever really knows who is out there. To simply look at the straightforward options like Powell etc is just scratching the surface imo. Heck the last two coaches to win the NRL GF are both 'left field' appointments - Madge from us and Green from the reserves.
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.
I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
sergeant pepper wrote:That's the million dollar question.
No one ever really knows who is out there. To simply look at the straightforward options like Powell etc is just scratching the surface imo. Heck the last two coaches to win the NRL GF are both 'left field' appointments - Madge from us and Green from the reserves.
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.
Joined: Jan 25 2012 Posts: 3922 Location: In the sky with diamonds
Saint #1 wrote:I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.
I've highlighted Brennan a few times. He seems to be ready to take on a big job and I'd love to see what he could bring to SL.
Saint #1 wrote:I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.
I've highlighted Brennan a few times. He seems to be ready to take on a big job and I'd love to see what he could bring to SL.
23 LEAGUE TITLES 21 CHALLENGE CUPS 5 WORLD TITLES SAYS IT ALL REALLY
Saint #1 wrote:I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.
And after all that we finished 4 seconds away from finishing top of the league (which was out of our hands) and a try away from being champions - ultimately the double.
All teams have strengths and weaknesses. Let's look at Saints:
If you don't gift them a penalty and make them come out of their own twenty they are not a team that will score full length tries. Do this you will beat them. Every time. Give them a set from twenty out from your own line (or drop a bomb) you're in trouble.
We will have better attacking options next year with Tomkins back, same structures likely though!
Saint #1 wrote:I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach.
My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies.
The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job.
The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.
And after all that we finished 4 seconds away from finishing top of the league (which was out of our hands) and a try away from being champions - ultimately the double.
All teams have strengths and weaknesses. Let's look at Saints:
If you don't gift them a penalty and make them come out of their own twenty they are not a team that will score full length tries. Do this you will beat them. Every time. Give them a set from twenty out from your own line (or drop a bomb) you're in trouble.
We will have better attacking options next year with Tomkins back, same structures likely though!
WIGAN RLFC - SL ERA
WORLD CLUB CHAMPIONS 2017 & 2024
SUPER LEAGUE CHAMPIONS 1998, 2010, 2013, 2016, 2018, 2023 & 2024
CHALLENGE CUP FINAL WINNERS 2002, 2011, 2013, 2022 & 2024
LEAGUE LEADERS CHAMPIONS 2010, 2012, 2020, 2023 & 2024
ACADEMY GRAND FINAL WINNERS 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018, 2019 & 2024
WOMEN’S GRAND FINAL WINNERS 2018
BEST SUPPORTED CLUB OF THE YEAR 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2024
Saint #1 wrote:I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed.
Seriously, you think there hasn't been a change in the style of play? Would you see the ball thrown around like it was at the weekend under McGuire? The defensive line is brilliant at times but the clinical aspect of the tackle has been lost, it feels less shape/calculated than McGuire with more scrambling in defence. The same is true Wigan's attack, it's less structured, yes there's set plays but again, not quite the same as Moran isn't the player to hit those lines well unlike Tomkins, but that step and acceleration make him brilliant at times in broken play.
goobervision wrote:Seriously, you think there hasn't been a change in the style of play? Would you see the ball thrown around like it was at the weekend under McGuire? The defensive line is brilliant at times but the clinical aspect of the tackle has been lost, it feels less shape/calculated than McGuire with more scrambling in defence. The same is true Wigan's attack, it's less structured, yes there's set plays but again, not quite the same as Moran isn't the player to hit those lines well unlike Tomkins, but that step and acceleration make him brilliant at times in broken play.
I don't think so. I just checked the stats and you made 289 offloads in 2015, 255 in 2010, 267 in 2011. So a slight increase but not massive. I think since Maguire came your game has always been based around line speed and numbers in the tackle in defence and in attack working to one side of the pitch with three second-man plays to the open side. I think with your defence for example, it's just as structured as it was under Maguire, it's just slightly less well-coached if I've explained that okay.
MattyB wrote:And after all that we finished 4 seconds away from finishing top of the league (which was out of our hands) and a try away from being champions - ultimately the double.
All teams have strengths and weaknesses. Let's look at Saints:
If you don't gift them a penalty and make them come out of their own twenty they are not a team that will score full length tries. Do this you will beat them. Every time. Give them a set from twenty out from your own line (or drop a bomb) you're in trouble.
We will have better attacking options next year with Tomkins back, same structures likely though!
It's not a slight to say that Wigan are very structured, I just think that sometimes you'd be better served being a bit less so.
sergeant pepper wrote:I've highlighted Brennan a few times. He seems to be ready to take on a big job and I'd love to see what he could bring to SL.
I think he'll get an NRL job in a year or two anyway. The way Gould speaks about him helps too. I'd be really interested to see the Walker brothers over here, I think their style of play would be much more suited to Super League than the NRL.
There has been some fantastic analysis on here that makes great reading. I would just add my thoughts, for what the are worth. We play a very attractive style of rugby. We throw the ball about and can score tries from anywhere. We defend as a team and, generally speaking, we are pretty successful. There are subtle changes that have been introduced to our attack; most notably the little inside ball from Tomkins to Bowen. Shaun Wane is not all about biff & hammer. He is a meticulous coach with an attention to detail. Last season we were pipped to two trophies by a Leeds team that found ways to win. They will not be the same team next season. We shall be favourites for every trophy next season. Quite rightly so, in my opinion. Shaun Wane is the man responsible for that.
There has been some fantastic analysis on here that makes great reading. I would just add my thoughts, for what the are worth. We play a very attractive style of rugby. We throw the ball about and can score tries from anywhere. We defend as a team and, generally speaking, we are pretty successful. There are subtle changes that have been introduced to our attack; most notably the little inside ball from Tomkins to Bowen. Shaun Wane is not all about biff & hammer. He is a meticulous coach with an attention to detail. Last season we were pipped to two trophies by a Leeds team that found ways to win. They will not be the same team next season. We shall be favourites for every trophy next season. Quite rightly so, in my opinion. Shaun Wane is the man responsible for that.
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FYI I was a nervous wreck before and during the game. If we had won I would have given him his dues, and have never called for a change before now. I don't think he is a terrible coach or anything but he isn't getting the results despite (IMO) having all the resources required to do so. I do think he would be under far more pressure but for a ridiculously easy cup run in '13. Ask Saints fans whether just getting to finals is good enough.
