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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:54 pm 
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*1865* wrote:What do you define as a close one? Because in 2013 we managed to win 4 games by less than 10 points, that included the non event game away at Wigan after the Cup Final.
Which is also the same number of games we've won by the same margin this year.

When Gentle arrived he said that the one thing he wanted to do was narrow the gap between our best and worse performances. IMO it's been Radford that has achieved that this year.


As a general rule, I'd say those games that are settled by a converted score or less. This year we've had 8 games that close, won 3 lost 5. In 2013 we had 10 games that close, won 5, drew 2, lost 3. I was thinking less about the number of tight games we've won and more about the percentage. In a close game, I feel less confident with this team.

And I totally agree that that was Gentle's biggest failing, I've said the same before. Taking out the Hudds extreme debacle and speaking more generally, I'm not convinced that Radford has done much better, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:57 pm 
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carl_spackler wrote: However, the fact that last year an alleged small fortune was spent on getting rid of those players and replacing them and this year we're no better than we were with them, has me personally thinking that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. We have Gentle/McRae being ripped apart for signing expensive players who were supposedly average, yet Radford/Pearson spending a further fortune on getting rid of them and signing expensive replacements (whom we are told are better, but don't really get better results) to still be no better overall by the time those other players would have been on their way out of the club for free still seems to be a legacy of Gentle/McRae. It makes no sense.


This is the root cause of our problem -IMO.

When Powell took over Castleford, he never had the luxury of saying "Not my team" and improved existing players.

He lost Chase and Clark, two of his main pivots, and still maintained a top 8 finish.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:02 pm 
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Mrs Barista wrote:I think the point on the Leeds game is key. Our fairytale cup run in 2005 probably helped create an unrealistic sense of possibility in the context of today's competition. We went through 2006 marshalled superbly by Cooke and Horne at the top of their respective games but in the following decade IMO the financing and infrastructures at the top 3 (and maybe Warrington) have stepped on to the extent of being currently unassailable. Sure, if we were more successful over time we'd leverage better value from the cap. But the collective cost that we can afford to spend on first team and academy and coaching staff is dwarfed by what Wigan/Leeds/Saints can via both materially higher gates, more control over stadium income, and wealthier, RL-devotee boards.

I buy in part the argument that investing Pritchard's (for the sake of argument) salary into coaching would help somewhat, but to me it's a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The total income of the club is simply not enough to compete against the top 3 consistently as exemplified in the Leeds game when they had 6 out.

In this context, maybe 7th isn't that catastrophic, but simply a reflection of where we are and can expect (or hope, if reduced pass sales force first team cuts) to be.

The communication with fans from the club needs to treat us a little less patronisingly IMO. Gung-ho promises of Top 4 are pointless now. Some measured acknowledgement of mistakes made and re-calibrating our stated ambition would IMO engage fans more effectively than repeated bluster and borderline nonsense. We're grown up enough to face the truth. The top 3 have huge competitive advantage which we can't match at the moment. Let's have a bottom-up plan for recovery that's believable and medium term.



I'd happily take a "guaranteed" 4th to 7th place spot each year from where we have been but the other thing we need to look at is why a couple of teams (cas and hudds) above us seem to be doing better with seemingly no better resources and no better playing squads IMO (If they have it's down to better recruitment as neither have star home grown players)






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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:18 pm 
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Diogenes wrote:Many of our financial difficulties can be laid at Pearson's door. He paid too much for the club and didn't do his due diligence properly e.g. the EBT liability.

He appointed McRae and followed his advice resulting in average players being signed on lucrative contracts. When he saw through McRae he then decided to pay off those players before their contracts were up.

Pearson's personality is mercurial, even capricious. He speaks without thinking and makes decisions in haste.

He then sacked Gentle a year too early and gave his inexperienced and unproven assistant a 3 year contract. Radford is a genuine, honest, hardworking guy but he's just not up to it. I honestly believe the reason Radford hasn't been sacked is because Pearson can't afford to pay him off.

He bought the club believing he would make money out of it but has had to pump in more and more and I think he has now run out of money. I think he planned to sell it for a profit in about 5 years but now he couldn't give it away.

Other problems are not down to him. He bought the club as we were entering the biggest recession for generations and falling attendances can partly be attributed to the effects of this recession on an economically deprived, low wage area.

He also made a mistake by promising too much too soon. He should have under-promised and over-delivered. Instead of saying we would be a force in the game within 3 years or so he should have told us what a state the club was in due to years of under-investment and that it would be a long job to turn it around.

So in summary I believe our problems are down to the actions of the previous regime, Pearson's poor judgment and reliance on those he appointed to advise him and the state of the economy.

I will accept any criticism of the fans who have put their hands in their pockets year on year and have very right to criticise. If we have unrealistic expectations that is entirely the fault of the owner and the club's PR machine.

So where do we go from here? I think whatever happens in the next two months pass sales will be down. If we do really badly in the Super 8's then they will be very seriously down. Signing players won't change that. The only thing which might would be to appoint an experienced, proven, top class coach but I don't think that will happen. Next season will be another battle to scrape into the top 8.



Good post. I think that your assessment of pearson is spot on. He seems to me like someone who doesn't employ people who will question his judgement so just ends up with a stack of yes men. gentle didn't seem to fit that bracket to me so maybe that's why he went and maybe there was friction due to it beforehand. pearson's interview on Thursday was a prime example of how he behaves. He started off very calmly but when people started questioning him and saying things he didn't like he went off on a rant which I believe he thought justified his point.

On the point of employing a better quality coach, sticking 1k on the average gate would probably cover the additional cost on top of radford's salary which would be easily achievable IMO






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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:29 pm 
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weaver93 wrote:This is the root cause of our problem -IMO.

When Powell took over Castleford, he never had the luxury of saying "Not my team" and improved existing players.

He lost Chase and Clark, two of his main pivots, and still maintained a top 8 finish.


this is because powell believes in his ability to get the best out of what he has, rather than simply buy new. i'm not at all sure radford can coach or manage a player to any degree. with our players it seems a face either fits or it doesn't






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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:51 pm 
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the artist wrote:this is because powell believes in his ability to get the best out of what he has, rather than simply buy new. i'm not at all sure radford can coach or manage a player to any degree. with our players it seems a face either fits or it doesn't


Big and strong is all Radford knows.
What he forgets about is the importance of pace and flair which is usually what as a team we cannot cope with.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:58 pm 
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bonaire wrote:Big and strong is all Radford knows.
What he forgets about is the importance of pace and flair which is usually what as a team we cannot cope with.


Getting the balance is key. Mix our team with kr!

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:01 pm 
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Good thread this one.

I've been going to FC since the early 80's and had a season pass from 92 through to last year, this being the first season I didn't buy one.

What's frustrating about the current situation, is I feel we almost made it terms AP's vision for the club.

He paid off the crap from the previous owners, invested in infrastructure, invested in youth development and the academy, and, at the same backed the coach in terms of running at salary cap.
The plan as I saw was that we would start producing more local talent and rely less on overseas mercs over for a last hurrah before retirement.

Doing all that whilst trying to challenge the top clubs and bring silverware to the club was never going to be easy. Yes there have been mistakes along the way.

But those shoots started to push through, there are youngsters pushing for a first team place, more than I can remember in some time. I still think our squad is better than its shown to be capable off this season.

The glaringly obvious thing he didn't do was get a top coach in - and this isn't LR bashing, its not his fault, no man in the right mind would have turned the job down.

But a top coach would have developed young talent better, probably played a more exciting brand of rugby and whilst the end result still may have only be 7th or 6th as those youngsters became more experienced, the fans would be entertained and excited to see young players developing before their very eyes - I know I would.

Now it seems its too late, with dwindling crowds due to 'boring' product on pitch, AP is having to cut his cloth as the OP suggested - the merger of the academy was purely for that reason, I wont be convinced otherwise.

With pass sales likely to down again next year, its only a matter of time before other cost cutting measures are made - this guy (AP) will NOT sit here forever watching his money go down the drain, he doesn't love the club that much regardless of what he says.

I really believe if he had gotten a proven, experienced coach 2/3 years ago, paid top dollar for him and maybe spend a fraction less on players to cover the investment all his hard work and commitment to the club and facilities/academy would now be paying off, the academy merger would never have happened and we wouldn't have this thread.

I know this thread doesn't need de-railing and I'm trying to avoid doing that, but the missing piece of the jigsaw is glaringly obvious to me, why not to him?

As mentioned earlier you only have to look at Cas to see what's achievable with a coach that connects with his players and leads them. They believe in him and his ideas and they execute them on the pitch.

I really fear the worse TBH in terms of revenue down again next year, and if we get off to a bad start again, another season of frustration, boredom and lack of success.

I used to look forward to the new season, now I dread it.






If it makes you happy it can't be that bad - Sheryl Crow 1996.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:23 pm 
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What's done is done I guess. I think in summary some of AP's investments have been good (academy) others poor at best, but currently we are likely to have insufficient total income to fund a strong academy and a top 3 size/quality of coaching staff and a squad that yields their sort of value. We can rebalance between the three pots which would probably help (and seems to be part of the academy merger thinking) but the maths seems inescapable. We're diluting the academy, and the coaching structure could scarcely be cheaper, so the only place left to cut spending is the first team. Given we've only just made the 8 in a season of few injuries, next year on a reduced cap spend could be jeopardy.

I take the point on Powell at Cas, but still don't think we can challenge the top 3 consistently without a step change in funding. I know the question's been asked already, but presumably there'd be no interest in buying us? RL clubs are generally basket-cases from a returns perspective, so any prospective buyer would have to be unhinged in an FC-nut way.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting our Cloth
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:37 pm 
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easthull fc fan wrote:Getting the balance is key. Mix our team with kr!


A dour team that can't score but will concede 40 points most weeks?

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