There certainly are. But it doesn't suggest that people were attending mainly because we were winning.

Sorry, didn't mean completely forget 2014. Just meant that it was obviously a strip back of the dead wood and complete rebuild starting this year. Improvements are being made IMO.

As well as Wigan being missing Crosby and Flower that night, 2 of their bigger players, and Sarginson instead of Bateman in the centres.

I don't think it's right to accept that we are now improving based upon it being better than a year that should be considered a write off. Setting the bar lower with a seriously poor year should not be able to be used as a new baseline to measure whether things are getting better when we're arguably not even yet back to the standard prior to that.

indeed.

There's not much difference at all between where we are now and where we were in 2013 in my view. Virtually none. Last year was a poor year. Arguably we're over that but only back to where we were.

Some very good and interesting points in this entire thread.

I've said my piece elsewhere but agree with Mrs B. For our short, medium and long term plans I'm the same as 90%+ on here though. No idea whatsoever. I like to think I know where we should go, but that doesn't appear to be shared by the owner. And if it was it would be unlikely to be a "grabber" for pass sales.

I'm not suggesting for even a millisecond that AP is lying but some more honesty and a willingness to listen to the views of fans would go a long way to helping him out of the hole he's digging.

One final point, even though we're not talking about coaching, Staffs FC mentioned "the likes of Arundel, Miller and other definitions of averageness". In other sides, the likes of (with all due respect to them) Flower, Crosby, Holmes, Huby, Murphy, Keinhorst, Currie, Powell all seem to be playing well in a side that is performing well and consistently. If we announced the signing of one of those listed it would meltdown on here as "not good enough" and "a lack of ambition" by the club. Yet the likes of Cas show you don't need a team of superstars to go well.

I agree, it's very close. When we've been good this year, we've been better than in 2013, but in 2013 we were better at getting over the line in the close ones. So overall, we've not made any (detectable) progress, but we've apparently spent a further fortune doing it. It just seems like so much good money being thrown after bad and still being spent unwisely.

Also, for all of the supposedly bad/expensive recruitment of McRae/Gentle holding us back, all of the players that we've since paid off/released would have been OOC of contract by the end of this season barring Arundel I think. Given that we've done no better than we did with them, it begs the question whether the extra cost was worth it or we might as well have stuck with them and gotten rid at the end of their contracts. That money saved could have gone towards coaching staff or keeping an independent academy.

I would welcome some of the players you mention there into our squad. Certainly Flower, Crosby and Powell who have been brought through in the right environment, and probably Keinhorst as well. If only we could produce young players who come through with that size and aggression and in Powell's case speed and ability. There is a reason why Miller and Arundel and alike aren't playing for Wigan and Leeds. Cas have some decent players and I don't subscribe to the fact that I see sometimes stated that Daryl Powell, as good a coach as he is, is some magician that can make average players play consistently out of their skins. They've done reasonably well and credit to them, but they're not a lot better than us as the overall table shows and indeed as our record against them shows this season.

That's the key though



Is he really that different to Arundel?



Amen brother!



Miller looks to be doing OK in an average side (and certainly showed us at their place). I'm not saying that Cas are average players though. The point I'm trying to make (admittedly not clearly ) is that the players are performing well in that side, as it shows in their results, and our team, man for man arguably better, aren't.