Joined: May 12 2011 Posts: 3338 Location: West Hull
Doom&Gloom Merchant wrote:Maybe they'd be better to pool resources at foundation level to work on increasing that pool rather than relying on our amateur clubs?
I mentioned over on the VT my experience of the Leeds Rhinos Foundation and their work at grassroots at improving local coaching and participation numbers. It all filters upwards to the Rhinos academy. They have fifteen full time foundation staff, and one of their current initiatives is to set up U7's sides at each junior club.
It seems to me that both clubs have identified a problem, but rather than looking to fix/improve the issue, they've come up with this reactive badly thought-out solution.
completely agree. Just gone for the cheaper and easier option.
All men are created equal, some work harder in preseason. -Emmitt Smith
I don't know if I'm missing something here, but as I understood it, the RFL fund academies in order to avoid this sort of thing. The clubs are just responsible for providing coaches. Surely there are enough full time players at both clubs who are thinking of moving into coaching once their playing career is over and u16's/u19's is surely a better place to cut your teeth in the coaching world ie Burrows and Ablett at Leeds.
It has been mentioned that there are only 140 lads playing RL at under 14's level in Hull, which is a shocking statistic and needs addressing, however the world does not end in Hull. There are plenty of teams playing in West Yorkshire but the Hull clubs are not interested. My son plays in the Yorkshire Junior u13's league and we have scouts from Leeds, Wakefield, Bradford, Wigan and Warrington at almost every game, but we have yet to see anyone from Hull or Rovers make the journey into Castleford. Agar may get a lot of criticism on this forum but at least he opened his eyes and brought lads from West Yorkshire over to Hull.
*1865* wrote:Hard to argue with the facts. Only 140 playing RL at u14s in the city, between us and Rovers we pick 50. That's a lot of rubbish being taken in and having money spent on them.
I've a bad memory but didn't we look into this just after Adam took over? I'm sure we did and it fell down because Hudge didn't realise we wanted him to put his hand in his pocket to help fund this.
From this we have been told how much emphasis has been put into player development and club Hull. Looking at the facilities at Bishop Burton, results and players feeding into the first team it seems to be working so why change? How many players have played in the 1st team from the U19's since AP tok charge and how many players have we needed to loan from other clubs?
I understand the 140 @U14's point but to me the answer is just to make sure that FC cherry pick the 140 before leaving the rest to Rovers.
Doom&Gloom Merchant wrote:Maybe they'd be better to pool resources at foundation level to work on increasing that pool rather than relying on our amateur clubs?
I mentioned over on the VT my experience of the Leeds Rhinos Foundation and their work at grassroots at improving local coaching and participation numbers. It all filters upwards to the Rhinos academy. They have fifteen full time foundation staff, and one of their current initiatives is to set up U7's sides at each junior club.
It seems to me that both clubs have identified a problem, but rather than looking to fix/improve the issue, they've come up with this reactive badly thought-out solution.
Both clubs are in schools and we've had players come down and coach our lads, including Ellis & Pryce. Participation is down, everywhere, that's a fact. We have u7's at most if not all our junior clubs, with most having plenty at 4 & 5 training too. More and more kids are leaving Rugby for football and having a premiership football team has helped drive that. Merger isn't something that sits easy, I for one am not happy, but what do we do? Not support our current crop in this system? I'm sure part of this joint venture is to address the issues lower down, too.
*1865* wrote:Both clubs are in schools and we've had players come down and coach our lads, including Ellis & Pryce. Participation is down, everywhere, that's a fact. We have u7's at most if not all our junior clubs, with most having plenty at 4 & 5 training too. More and more kids are leaving Rugby for football and having a premiership football team has helped drive that. Merger isn't something that sits easy, I for one am not happy, but what do we do? Not support our current crop in this system? I'm sure part of this joint venture is to address the issues lower down, too.
I just don't see their plan as any kind of solution to dwindling participation numbers.
You know junior RL in Hull way better than me, but if most clubs are running an U7's (& younger), is it a case that there just aren't enough clubs, or are kids losing interest as they grow older? Those are the questions I'd be looking to answer if I was Hull FC & Hull KR, and looking at trying to fix them.
Do the clubs spread their net enough - Do we scout outside of Hull (a poster from West Yorks seemed to suggest not), what are the clubs doing to create new clubs both in Hull and in outlying towns? In North Leeds alone, two new junior clubs have been created in recent years with the Rhinos help. One just last year, now they have four junior sides.
This initiative seems a little desperate to me. It's also very hard to accept when we have such a good U19's side that competes with Wigan/Leeds/Saints etc following the investment under Pearson. Is the issue their transition into the first team from U19's, rather than not having the talent? Crooks, Cunningham, Hadley, Bowden, Green, Shaul all look to have the talent & capability but are we doing enough to turn them into solid, starting SL players? And, how will this transition change under the new merged academy?
Cup Winners: 1914, 1982, 2005, 2016, 2017. Cup Runners-Up: 1908, 1909, 1910, 1922, 1923, 1959, 1960, 1980, 1983, 1985, 2008, 2013. League Champions: 1920, 1921, 1936, 1956, 1958, 1983. League Runners-Up: 1957, 1982, 1984, 2006.
Doom&Gloom Merchant wrote:I just don't see their plan as any kind of solution to dwindling participation numbers.
You know junior RL in Hull way better than me, but if most clubs are running an U7's (& younger), is it a case that there just aren't enough clubs, or are kids losing interest as they grow older? Those are the questions I'd be looking to answer if I was Hull FC & Hull KR, and looking at trying to fix them.
Do the clubs spread their net enough - Do we scout outside of Hull (a poster from West Yorks seemed to suggest not), what are the clubs doing to create new clubs both in Hull and in outlying towns? In North Leeds alone, two new junior clubs have been created in recent years with the Rhinos help. One just last year, now they have four junior sides.
This initiative seems a little desperate to me. It's also very hard to accept when we have such a good U19's side that competes with Wigan/Leeds/Saints etc following the investment under Pearson. Is the issue their transition into the first team from U19's, rather than not having the talent? Crooks, Cunningham, Hadley, Bowden, Green, Shaul all look to have the talent & capability but are we doing enough to turn them into solid, starting SL players? And, how will this transition change under the new merged academy?
It's difficult for both clubs to recruit from outside the East Riding. We're 50 miles from the nearest RL playing area and no matter how much we want player x it's simply not practical to expect a player to choose Hull, especially when Leeds are on their doorstep.
I don't think the problem is identified at the level going through right now, it seems more of a proactive measure to address problems identified coming through. You look at ours and Rovers 19's at the minute and between us I reckon there's only 20 players that have a realistic chance of being SL players between us, luckily for us the majority are at Hull. At present we're struggling to turn that potential in to real outcomes. The idea I suppose is that we'll take the best 30 and really concentrate on them with pooled resources in order to get them the best in sports science, education etc. to hopefully increase our conversion rate.
Problem with the younger ones is everybody wants to play for Easts, West, Wyke or Skirlaugh. This creates a problem where a lot of kids just aren't getting the focused training needed. As they progress the talent becomes spread to other teams but a lot just simply fall away.
*1865* wrote:It's difficult for both clubs to recruit from outside the East Riding. We're 50 miles from the nearest RL playing area and no matter how much we want player x it's simply not practical to expect a player to choose Hull, especially when Leeds are on their doorstep.
I don't think the problem is identified at the level going through right now, it seems more of a proactive measure to address problems identified coming through. You look at ours and Rovers 19's at the minute and between us I reckon there's only 20 players that have a realistic chance of being SL players between us, luckily for us the majority are at Hull. At present we're struggling to turn that potential in to real outcomes. The idea I suppose is that we'll take the best 30 and really concentrate on them with pooled resources in order to get them the best in sports science, education etc. to hopefully increase our conversion rate.
Problem with the younger ones is everybody wants to play for Easts, West, Wyke or Skirlaugh. This creates a problem where a lot of kids just aren't getting the focused training needed. As they progress the talent becomes spread to other teams but a lot just simply fall away.
Unfortunately, RL can't compete with football.
Appreciate that. There certainly seems to be big issues in Hull.
Cup Winners: 1914, 1982, 2005, 2016, 2017. Cup Runners-Up: 1908, 1909, 1910, 1922, 1923, 1959, 1960, 1980, 1983, 1985, 2008, 2013. League Champions: 1920, 1921, 1936, 1956, 1958, 1983. League Runners-Up: 1957, 1982, 1984, 2006.
*1865* wrote:It's difficult for both clubs to recruit from outside the East Riding. We're 50 miles from the nearest RL playing area and no matter how much we want player x it's simply not practical to expect a player to choose Hull, especially when Leeds are on their doorstep.
I don't think the problem is identified at the level going through right now, it seems more of a proactive measure to address problems identified coming through. You look at ours and Rovers 19's at the minute and between us I reckon there's only 20 players that have a realistic chance of being SL players between us, luckily for us the majority are at Hull. At present we're struggling to turn that potential in to real outcomes. The idea I suppose is that we'll take the best 30 and really concentrate on them with pooled resources in order to get them the best in sports science, education etc. to hopefully increase our conversion rate.
Problem with the younger ones is everybody wants to play for Easts, West, Wyke or Skirlaugh. This creates a problem where a lot of kids just aren't getting the focused training needed. As they progress the talent becomes spread to other teams but a lot just simply fall away.
Unfortunately, RL can't compete with football.
My son's one ambition in life is to be a professional rugby player. I would gladly make the journey from Castleford to Hull to help him achieve his ambition, just as I would make the journey to Wigan should they want him. As I said in my original post there are scouts from Lancashire clubs at our games. Wigan have a scout based in the area, they are that keen to make sure no stone is unturned.
My son has been to embed the pathway sessions during school holidays at Wakefield and Castleford and at both there were lads from Hull. I bet there wasn't a single lad from outside of the Hull amateur teams at the sessions run by Hull and Rovers. There is a big world of opportunity and player talent out there if you choose to look.
There are 43 teams operating at under 13's and one under 13's team playing in the age group above in Yorkshire, that will be almost 800 participants. Admittedly not every one will have the potential to become a professional player, and some might have their hearts set on playing on their doorstep, but not everyone. There are clubs in Rotherham, Doncaster that are largely ignored. If the link works this lad is just 14 and a terrific athlete but at an unfashionable lower league club. Hull needs to stop being so insular and look further afield.
*1865* wrote:It's difficult for both clubs to recruit from outside the East Riding. We're 50 miles from the nearest RL playing area and no matter how much we want player x it's simply not practical to expect a player to choose Hull, especially when Leeds are on their doorstep.
I don't think the problem is identified at the level going through right now, it seems more of a proactive measure to address problems identified coming through. You look at ours and Rovers 19's at the minute and between us I reckon there's only 20 players that have a realistic chance of being SL players between us, luckily for us the majority are at Hull. At present we're struggling to turn that potential in to real outcomes. The idea I suppose is that we'll take the best 30 and really concentrate on them with pooled resources in order to get them the best in sports science, education etc. to hopefully increase our conversion rate.
Problem with the younger ones is everybody wants to play for Easts, West, Wyke or Skirlaugh. This creates a problem where a lot of kids just aren't getting the focused training needed. As they progress the talent becomes spread to other teams but a lot just simply fall away.
Unfortunately, RL can't compete with football.
My son's one ambition in life is to be a professional rugby player. I would gladly make the journey from Castleford to Hull to help him achieve his ambition, just as I would make the journey to Wigan should they want him. As I said in my original post there are scouts from Lancashire clubs at our games. Wigan have a scout based in the area, they are that keen to make sure no stone is unturned.
My son has been to embed the pathway sessions during school holidays at Wakefield and Castleford and at both there were lads from Hull. I bet there wasn't a single lad from outside of the Hull amateur teams at the sessions run by Hull and Rovers. There is a big world of opportunity and player talent out there if you choose to look.
There are 43 teams operating at under 13's and one under 13's team playing in the age group above in Yorkshire, that will be almost 800 participants. Admittedly not every one will have the potential to become a professional player, and some might have their hearts set on playing on their doorstep, but not everyone. There are clubs in Rotherham, Doncaster that are largely ignored. If the link works this lad is just 14 and a terrific athlete but at an unfashionable lower league club. Hull needs to stop being so insular and look further afield.
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