carl_spackler wrote:Not sure I understand that, we've had one of SL's better defences pretty much as long as Radford has been on the coaching staff, especially our goal-line defence. He sorted that a long time ago, so I don't see why it would take until a month or so ago to decide that we could now play more open rugby.
Lee Radford mentioned in a radio interview that several weeks ago there was a clear the air meeting with the players and three senior players stood up to take responsibility going forward. Seems to me that whatever was said and as a result our style of play changed and the confidence is now growing in the team to take risks in moving the ball and creating a faster play the ball.
Joined: Feb 20 2007 Posts: 10540 Location: Hunting Gopher
bonaire wrote:Lee Radford mentioned in a radio interview that several weeks ago there was a clear the air meeting with the players and three senior players stood up to take responsibility going forward. Seems to me that whatever was said and as a result our style of play changed and the confidence is now growing in the team to take risks in moving the ball and creating a faster play the ball.
That makes much more sense to me. And I can also see why being shown more trust could help player confidence.
Joined: Feb 12 2005 Posts: 13126 Location: East Staffordshire
carl_spackler wrote:Of course it will.
From several of your recent posts, there seems to be a general theme that you think the main reasons why we've improved are that we've got players back from injury and the halves are now gelling. Fair enough.
I don't happen to agree with you. That doesn't mean I don't think those things are a factor, nor insignificant. I think it's more to do with the change in approach, which is in turn allowing the halves to flourish. It's a chicken and egg question where it is essentially impossible to prove one is right over the other, but the reasons I personally think it's more about the system over the personnel are:
1. It wasn't a gradual change. IMO there was a clear change between the Hudds game and the Salford game in terms of how we tried to play. The team against Salford (particularly the pack) was weaker than that against Hudds, so it wasn't down to returning players. If the main change was down to returning personnel, I'd have expected steady improvement every time somebody came back, and if it was the halves, I would have expected to see steady improvement from them over the season, but we haven't. Pryce has been consistently very good throughout, and Sneyd seems to have gone from ordinary with an inconsistent kicking game to back to last year's standards in under a month.
2. We were also pants earlier in the season with almost a full side at times. Hinting at most of our problems being injury related is a fallacy IMO. Salford away, Leeds home, Wigan away, Cas away, Rovers home, were all games where we had maybe 1-2 pack players missing, but with what should be able deputies, but in most of those (Wigan arguably less so) we still produced very disappointing performances. We also had our first choice halves for all but the Rovers game. That amount of difference in personnel (to me at least) should not constitute so great a difference in performance standards as between then and now). Some difference, yes, but not as much as we've seen.
3. The awfulness of earlier this season was consistent with last year, regardless of personnel.
4. Even players that have played pretty much all season are now shining more, throughout the side.
I think it's very clear that we have fundamentally changed how we approach playing the game, and at the same time our performances have become much more entertaining to watch and we look a much better side who go out and take games, not hang in scrapping and nick them. It's a symbiotic relationship, but I'm more inclined to think that the style change has brought the best out in the players than that it's all just come together all at once because we have a near-fully fit side and the halfbacks know each other better. The improvement has been too drastic, and there is contradictive evidence for that.
Interesting points. Last year we lost a lot of close games. We've also done that this year. We have played a number of games this year with key players injured: Ellis, Sneyd, Watts , Westerman, Paea suspended etc. We all know that we tend to play better when these players play. It has taken time to introduce new pivots, and all players are playing with more confidence than before - that much is obvious.
From your recent posts you seem to be looking to some sort of watershed moment - possibly prompted by fans' displeasure or alike. I'll stick with the above reasons as being far more likely to have contributed more heavily to the gradual improvement that has taken place. Obviously the coach will have tweaked things as all coaches would do from game to game. There's more improvement to come hopefully although I think we've probably now witnessed us at our best in periods of the last 2 games. Consistency is now paramount.
"To play your best football you need players with enthusiasm and drive and energy." - Peter Sterling
Adam Pearson said not wrote:I know there are two franchises and two clubs (in Hull) and that will remain forever more
Joined: Feb 20 2007 Posts: 10540 Location: Hunting Gopher
Staffs FC wrote:Interesting points. Last year we lost a lot of close games. We've also done that this year. We have played a number of games this year with key players injured: Ellis, Sneyd, Watts , Westerman, Paea suspended etc. We all know that we tend to play better when these players play. It has taken time to introduce new pivots, and all players are playing with more confidence than before - that much is obvious.
From your recent posts you seem to be looking to some sort of watershed moment - possibly prompted by fans' displeasure or alike. I'll stick with the above reasons as being far more likely to have contributed more heavily to the gradual improvement that has taken place. Obviously the coach will have tweaked things as all coaches would do from game to game. There's more improvement to come hopefully although I think we've probably now witnessed us at our best in periods of the last 2 games. Consistency is now paramount.
Firstly, I've never claimed it to be prompted by fan displeasure. In fact I've gone on record as saying I think this is highly unlikely, as anything prompted by that would have happened earlier than it did.
Secondly, the highlighted bit is the nub of our disagreement. I don't think there was gradual improvement, and I'm actually baffled as to how anybody could. Prior to Salford/Warrington, Hudds apart the season was almost exactly like last year. No idea with ball in hand other than plenty of huff and puff trying to bludgeon through sides, which did occasionally work. Then there was a huge change and step forward over those 2 games I mentioned.
I don't think I'm alone in that assessment. Check out the Dentist's Diaries from around those games and see the difference in attitude post Hudds and Warrington. Check out post-games threads on here from the same period and there were plenty of others posting similar.
Finally, this is what you posted the day of the Salford game, just over a month ago:
Staffs FC wrote:I'm sick to the back teeth of reading HDM pieces such as this from our players and coaches:
Whether it's Yeaman or anyone else I've had enough of reading how we're not far away and the league is condensed etc. etc. Where is the confidence that 'the squad can be much better' exactly coming from ? As for the idea that we've been playing OK in the matches previous to Hudds it surprises me how they think they can pull the wool over supporters' eyes in such a fashion. We've played OK in 3 possibly 4 games this season - the rest has been below standard - some like last week off the scale. But the real thing that gets me is this idea that our players and coaches talk about not having enough desire and enthusiasm on such a regular basis. Put another way this is actually a pretty disgraceful admission that they are going to work on match day (and therefore more than likely in the week as well) not really being arsed about the result or their individual and collective performance.
What needs doing is for the players and coaches to collectively shut the **** up and actually go out there and produce to the best of their ability week in and week out. I'll be going again tonight but don't blame others for not doing so - when representatives of the club effectively admit that they're not putting anywhere near enough effort and enthusiasm in from their side then why would they think that supporters must do so ad infinitum?
So - stop chucking the ball sideways to the next man along without committing anyone in front of you. Instead of standing with your finger up your rear make a decoy run when the half gets near the line. Run three times harder into the collision in attack and defence and chase and challenge for the kicks like you see other professionals in other teams doing on a regular basis. Fight hard to get up and play the ball at every tackle like your life depends on it, and back up the forward drives to make the opposition actually make some decisions that might therefore mean they get some of them wrong.
In summary STOP TELLING US IN THE MEDIA THAT IT WILL GET BETTER AND WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY BECAUSE THE LEAGUE IS CLOSE. INSTEAD GO OUT AND REPRESENT HULL FC (A CLUB YOU ARE PRIVILEGED TO BE PLAYING FOR IN ITS 150th YEAR) AT THE STANDARD REQUIRED FOR SUPER LEAGUE. PUT IN THE MAXIMUM EFFORT POSSIBLE WHICH IS THE ABSOLUTE BASE MINIMUM THAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING EVERY WEEK WITHOUT FAIL.
If you do that then you might find that playing at home becomes more enjoyable and the empty seats start filling again. At Hull FC we've seen some brilliant players play for us over the years and there's no doubt that the current staff structure from the coaches downwards is way off the level of some of the teams we've seen in the past. But in actual fact at Hull FC if the fans see the desire and enthusiasm for the shirt and for them then they will support the team through wins and losses. We can cover to some extent for a lack of pace and strike and skill if every man works his tits off for the cause. I don't understand why we're having to ask for this because it should be a given, but putting that to one side now's the time to break out of this morass of crap and start putting down some standards that this great club and its supporters deserve.
That doesn't read to me like you thought we were making gradual progress up until that point, and I wouldn't call the amount of improvement we've made since that point in the space of a month gradual.
Staffs FC wrote:Interesting points. Last year we lost a lot of close games. We've also done that this year. We have played a number of games this year with key players injured: Ellis, Sneyd, Watts , Westerman, Paea suspended etc. We all know that we tend to play better when these players play. It has taken time to introduce new pivots, and all players are playing with more confidence than before - that much is obvious.
From your recent posts you seem to be looking to some sort of watershed moment - possibly prompted by fans' displeasure or alike. I'll stick with the above reasons as being far more likely to have contributed more heavily to the gradual improvement that has taken place. Obviously the coach will have tweaked things as all coaches would do from game to game. There's more improvement to come hopefully although I think we've probably now witnessed us at our best in periods of the last 2 games. Consistency is now paramount.
Firstly, I've never claimed it to be prompted by fan displeasure. In fact I've gone on record as saying I think this is highly unlikely, as anything prompted by that would have happened earlier than it did.
Secondly, the highlighted bit is the nub of our disagreement. I don't think there was gradual improvement, and I'm actually baffled as to how anybody could. Prior to Salford/Warrington, Hudds apart the season was almost exactly like last year. No idea with ball in hand other than plenty of huff and puff trying to bludgeon through sides, which did occasionally work. Then there was a huge change and step forward over those 2 games I mentioned.
I don't think I'm alone in that assessment. Check out the Dentist's Diaries from around those games and see the difference in attitude post Hudds and Warrington. Check out post-games threads on here from the same period and there were plenty of others posting similar.
Finally, this is what you posted the day of the Salford game, just over a month ago:
Staffs FC wrote:I'm sick to the back teeth of reading HDM pieces such as this from our players and coaches:
Whether it's Yeaman or anyone else I've had enough of reading how we're not far away and the league is condensed etc. etc. Where is the confidence that 'the squad can be much better' exactly coming from ? As for the idea that we've been playing OK in the matches previous to Hudds it surprises me how they think they can pull the wool over supporters' eyes in such a fashion. We've played OK in 3 possibly 4 games this season - the rest has been below standard - some like last week off the scale. But the real thing that gets me is this idea that our players and coaches talk about not having enough desire and enthusiasm on such a regular basis. Put another way this is actually a pretty disgraceful admission that they are going to work on match day (and therefore more than likely in the week as well) not really being arsed about the result or their individual and collective performance.
What needs doing is for the players and coaches to collectively shut the **** up and actually go out there and produce to the best of their ability week in and week out. I'll be going again tonight but don't blame others for not doing so - when representatives of the club effectively admit that they're not putting anywhere near enough effort and enthusiasm in from their side then why would they think that supporters must do so ad infinitum?
So - stop chucking the ball sideways to the next man along without committing anyone in front of you. Instead of standing with your finger up your rear make a decoy run when the half gets near the line. Run three times harder into the collision in attack and defence and chase and challenge for the kicks like you see other professionals in other teams doing on a regular basis. Fight hard to get up and play the ball at every tackle like your life depends on it, and back up the forward drives to make the opposition actually make some decisions that might therefore mean they get some of them wrong.
In summary STOP TELLING US IN THE MEDIA THAT IT WILL GET BETTER AND WE DON'T HAVE TO WORRY BECAUSE THE LEAGUE IS CLOSE. INSTEAD GO OUT AND REPRESENT HULL FC (A CLUB YOU ARE PRIVILEGED TO BE PLAYING FOR IN ITS 150th YEAR) AT THE STANDARD REQUIRED FOR SUPER LEAGUE. PUT IN THE MAXIMUM EFFORT POSSIBLE WHICH IS THE ABSOLUTE BASE MINIMUM THAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING EVERY WEEK WITHOUT FAIL.
If you do that then you might find that playing at home becomes more enjoyable and the empty seats start filling again. At Hull FC we've seen some brilliant players play for us over the years and there's no doubt that the current staff structure from the coaches downwards is way off the level of some of the teams we've seen in the past. But in actual fact at Hull FC if the fans see the desire and enthusiasm for the shirt and for them then they will support the team through wins and losses. We can cover to some extent for a lack of pace and strike and skill if every man works his tits off for the cause. I don't understand why we're having to ask for this because it should be a given, but putting that to one side now's the time to break out of this morass of crap and start putting down some standards that this great club and its supporters deserve.
That doesn't read to me like you thought we were making gradual progress up until that point, and I wouldn't call the amount of improvement we've made since that point in the space of a month gradual.
Kosh wrote:We must be the only fans in SL who'd have a heated post-mortem about why we're playing well.
Personally I don't care if it's down to Radford, the players, injuries, blood sacrifices to the Elder Gods - whatever. Long may it continue.
Oh - and if Radford got the lion's share of the blame when we were rubbish it's only fair he gets some praise when things have turned around.
Agree Kosh.
I think this is really just about the passion of 2 fans who both believe they know the reasons why we are an improving team. Both make good points. I'm just enjoying this phase of the season, and wollowing in our teams new found confidence, no matter how we've found it. Now we just have to go unbeaten till the end and we win the lot. Well I can dream can't I.
Joined: Feb 12 2005 Posts: 13126 Location: East Staffordshire
carl_spackler wrote:That doesn't read to me like you thought we were making gradual progress up until that point, and I wouldn't call the amount of improvement we've made since that point in the space of a month gradual.
I wrote that because when we play poorly I don't accept garbage about 'blokes not turning up'. I don't accept anything other than 100% effort and commitment to the cause as an absolute base minimum. When I think it doesn't happen then I will be the heaviest critic on here. Hence the post. To be fair to Radford during his tenure there's generally been bags of effort at most games with the players clearly backing the coach. If you want an illustration of a big improvement I would say there's one there for you. Think about the game just prior to Radford's first game in charge.
I've been entirely consistent with my approach this season. I said before it started that Radford needed 10 games to continue on the improvement that we made at the back end of last season. After the KR defeat at Easter I thought that 4 points wouldn't be enough, however the completion of the 10 games saw us on 8 points after impressive wins against Saints and Widnes. So I then thought he should have until the end of the season to see where we finish, particularly as we'd also lost two games by one point against Wire and Wigan. If we stay relatively injury free I hope we can rally into the end of the season and do OK. The new players Radford has brought in in Minichiello, Pryce and Sneyd have settled in well now. Watts is playing some of the best rugby of his career under Radford and in general there's signs we're playing to our potential. Good on Radford and long may it continue - I'm glad Pearson has stuck with him while some fans gave up attending but the end of the season will determine the ultimate level of success. If we fall away again then it wouldn't be acceptable.
That's the end of this conversation from my side - I'm bored with it so everyone else must be suicidal.
"To play your best football you need players with enthusiasm and drive and energy." - Peter Sterling
Adam Pearson said not wrote:I know there are two franchises and two clubs (in Hull) and that will remain forever more
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