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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:12 am 
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Of those mentioned so far, here's my take:

Yvette Cooper - too close to Ed Balls, mention of him would be continuous and keep dragging her back

Chuka Umunna - personable enough, good communicator but he'll be subjected to closet racism in the same way that Miliband suffered closet anti-semitism

Andy Burnham - good orator, cheeky chappy but will always be saddled with "North Staffs killing 1200 people"

Liz Kendall - intelligent, excellent orator. About the only thing the Wail will find wrong is that she's not married and her partner is a comedian

None of them get me excited but of the lot, I'd go for Kendall






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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:23 am 
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I'm sure "New" New Labour will follow what's been its traditional policy since Harold Wilson's days of jumping further to the right with each successive iteration whilst further selling out its core principles. It's now so far from the Labour Party of the post-war years it might as well drop the appellation "Labour" altogether.

The truth of the matter is that even at the height of its ideological fervour - Labour was always a half-hearted at attempt at socialism. If anything the party was created as a buffer against true socialism breaking out in Britain with the creation of the NHS serving as a payoff to the electorate for the sufferings of two savage wars.

I mean, people talk about Blair selling the party down the river - but Harold Wilson did as much damage if not more so.

I might not agree with Peter O'Borne's politics - but he's absolutely correct in saying there are no longer any real divisions between Labour, the Conservatives and the Lib-Dems. There exists only one party in Westminster (excluding the SNP for the time being) which has multiple factions. They might bicker and scheme and war against each other - but should the system as a whole be threatened (such as happened during MP's expenses) they'll immediately coalesce into a tight group, raise their shields and like a Roman turtle advancing determinedly toward a jeering band of rock-hurling Visigoths they'll wipe the obnoxious, upstart proles from the battlefield.

Blair was arguably the first all-out political opportunist (and perhaps still the best example) - but Cameron, Clegg and Milliband are all his spiritual progeny to some lesser or greater extent.

Not that they have much freedom of self-determination. We live in a global marketplace dominated by enormous multi-national conglomerates, super-power and approaching-super-power states etc. all of whose influence borders upon the unimaginable by comparison.

Instead of wielding comprehensive and conspicuous real-world power as prime ministers during the days of the British Empire (and immediately in the wake of WWII) once did - today's incarnations are little more the middle-managers whose job it is to take the fall for the true architects of power (international banking, trans-national corporations, defence contractors, big oil etc.)

Once their term in office is concluded they are handsomely rewarded with lucrative positions on the boards of several corporations (even John Major managed to get himself onto the board of the Carlyle Group) and they largely disappear from view. Which is surely antithetical to democracy since an ex-prime minister is arguably the best person possible to provide the electorate with experienced analysis and criticism of those in power.

The fourth estate gave the Tories a pretty easy time of it last term. But you can bet they'll be after Cameron like salivating dogs chasing the hare at Belle Vue this. Oh the self-righteousness will be cranked up to maximum (especially in the Guardian) as Tory cuts bite deep. After all, SOMEONE must stand up for the people ( :lol: ). But the reality is (whether they know it or not) they are merely baiting the electorate for the absolute necessity of voting Labour next time around. And so the carnival just keeps rollin' on.

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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:04 pm 
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Lord Elpers wrote:Too close to the Unions

:CRAZY: :lol:

You don't read much do you.

Isn't Cameron too close to his unions?






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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:20 pm 
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The 'Labour' Party are so far removed from their supposed core vote they should be sued for misrepresentation. I predict that every potential leadership candidate will try and move the party even further to the right in the illusion that this is why they are losing votes. As supposedly proven in several surveys immigration adds a net economic positive to the country as a whole BUT the bottom 20% end up WORSE OFF. That's why IMO a lot of traditional Labour voter who tend to lives in a micro-bubble are turning to UKIP. They don't fully understand how a global economy functions but they have enough common sense to realise that more competition for low paid jobs drives down wages even further.

Scotland's rejection of U.K pro-austerity parties shows that the working classes want a turn to the LEFT. Unfortunately Labour sold their souls to the City of London and the banksters in charge years ago and they cannot see that pandering to these financial fraudsters is slowly killing the country.






"If the American people knew tonight, exactly how the monetary and banking system worked, there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:50 am 
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LeighGionaire wrote:The 'Labour' Party are so far removed from their supposed core vote they should be sued for misrepresentation. I predict that every potential leadership candidate will try and move the party even further to the right in the illusion that this is why they are losing votes. As supposedly proven in several surveys immigration adds a net economic positive to the country as a whole BUT the bottom 20% end up WORSE OFF. That's why IMO a lot of traditional Labour voter who tend to lives in a micro-bubble are turning to UKIP. They don't fully understand how a global economy functions but they have enough common sense to realise that more competition for low paid jobs drives down wages even further.

Scotland's rejection of U.K pro-austerity parties shows that the working classes want a turn to the LEFT. Unfortunately Labour sold their souls to the City of London and the banksters in charge years ago and they cannot see that pandering to these financial fraudsters is slowly killing the country.


I'm not all that well up on politics, so don't understand this. One of the most common criticisms of Milliband's Labour was that his manifesto was too far left and ignored the centre-left. You seem to be encouraging them to do exactly what they already did?

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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:59 am 
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Saddened! wrote:I'm not all that well up on politics, so don't understand this. One of the most common criticisms of Milliband's Labour was that his manifesto was too far left and ignored the centre-left. You seem to be encouraging them to do exactly what they already did?


Its standard practice after an election defeat, whether Tory or Labour. "we would have won if only we had been more left/right wing". Ignoring the overwhelming evidence that being too left/right wing is why they lost.

Its peculiar to the world of politics, the belief that if you do more of the things that make you unpopular, you will suddenly become popular

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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:25 am 
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LeighGionaire wrote:Scotland's rejection of U.K pro-austerity parties shows that the working classes want a turn to the LEFT. Unfortunately Labour sold their souls to the City of London and the banksters in charge years ago and they cannot see that pandering to these financial fraudsters is slowly killing the country.

Not true. The failed independence vote sealed the fate of Scotland, and it amazes me anyone expressed surprise at the GE results. Almost without fail, nationalist Scots flocked to the SNP banner - or at least enough to guarantee seats. A cursory glance at social media told me that much, and many Scots I know joined the SNP - including right-wingers, despite their core values. It was less Nicola Sturgeon than it was Mel Gibson.

Similarly with much of English working class Labour vote. Don't mistake the old traditional died-in-the-wool Labour vote with left-leaning beliefs. That loyalty lingers thanks to decades of the unions and a laudable yet slightly illogical loyalty to the family vote. Most of the working class I know care little for leftist policies, they want plenty of work at a decent wage, immigrants out, terrorists dead, paedos castrated and cheap beer and fags. The union loyalty is dying out and UKIP are the only party saying what they're thinking.

I've said it many times. You could drink in a working men's club or pub and hear conversations that would make Nick Griffin whince, yet those same men would go out and vote Labour. Union/family loyalty, nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 10:48 am 
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Saddened! wrote:I'm not all that well up on politics, so don't understand this. One of the most common criticisms of Milliband's Labour was that his manifesto was too far left and ignored the centre-left. You seem to be encouraging them to do exactly what they already did?


Since the turn of the last century (and certainly with the arrival of the Nazi Party in Germany when the practice really began to gear up) it's been common to see political entities which anyone prior to WWII would consider "Right Wing" dress themselves in the clothes of the Left. Basically it's the promise of socialism without socialism.

As mentioned, the Nazi Party really were the masters of this black art. Those on the Right never cease to gleefully point out the "Socialist" in National Socialism. But the Nazi Party, whilst promising a socialist revolution, never had any intentions of delivering such.

True, there was a social element to Nazism. A strong one, too. But this was primarily centred around the Cult of Leadership, sexual politics and the nations rampant war economy.

You have to remember, the Nazis were in direct competition with the socialists during the time of the Wiemar Republic. So it was politically expedient to blur the definition of socialism in order to capture new members.

The true litmus test of whether Nazism equated to socialism was the question of labour. A truly socialist system embraces labour unions. Indeed, such are at the very core of policy. The Nazis embraced labour unions - and then murdered them.

Comparing Milliband's Labour with Nazism is somewhat extreme. But it's fundamentally the same argument. Labour is not a socialist party. It is not a "Left Wing" party (or even centrist).

Labour is a right wing party. The Conservative Party is further to the right. UKIP are not too distant from fascist.

I should say that the entire parliamentary political class (I don't consider today's political parties exist in any form other than name - which means this is effectively a one party state with multiple factions) will likely take two steps further to the right this term. And yes, unless this trend is reversed or diverted somehow (how, I'm not sure) we are going to have problems in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:15 pm 
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Saddened! wrote:I'm not all that well up on politics, so don't understand this. One of the most common criticisms of Milliband's Labour was that his manifesto was too far left and ignored the centre-left. You seem to be encouraging them to do exactly what they already did?


That criticism is unfounded because it wasn't left wing at all.

About the most left wing things they proposed were allowing existing departments in hospitals to bid to provide services (such as radiology or whatever) whereas the Tories exclude them (only private companies allowed to bid...) and allowing rail franchises to be run as the east coat main line was rather than be compulsorily sold off.

If you thought they were left wing its because the propaganda worked.






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Last league derby at Knowsley Road 2/4/2010: St. Helens 10 Wigan 18

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 Post subject: Re: The Labour party leadership thread
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 12:16 pm 
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Cronus wrote:I've said it many times. You could drink in a working men's club or pub and hear conversations that would make Nick Griffin whince, yet those same men would go out and vote Labour. Union/family loyalty, nothing more.


That statement just shows the confusion that people thinking in daft so called "left" and "right" terms causes.

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