Joined: Jan 30 2003 Posts: 2476 Location: South Cave, East Yorkshire
WormInHand wrote:Brilliant solution for the immediate problem.
But could the council undertake the running of and maintenance of the stadium? Bearing in mind why the SMC was created in that way in the first place (albeit with an honest businessman with integrity at the helm), so that the council and ratepayers of Hull would not bear these costs?
If a similar company is created the council would have the problems of finding someone who wants to undertake it and ensuring that a similar debacle could not ensue, as a result of subsequent changes in ownership. There is also the issue of the potential changes in control of the council - the Bartlett-Allam sale which seems to have caused the problems occurring under the LibDem's watch. They, of course, have always maintained their disinterest in the stadium mainly, it would appear, because they short-sightedly opposed it's building in the first place. We only need another change in council control for gung-ho decisions and transactions made without due diligence from the current incumbents as owners for the same spaghetti mess as we are seeing at the present time to evolve.
Any creation of a 'new SMC' would have to have watertight clauses attached regarding any subsequent sale of the new company. Would they find a buyer to comply?
The council is developing its own leisure company to run all such facilities, I could see no reason why this arms length company couldn't run it going forward.
In the short term, something has to be done to support or prevent the eviction of the community groups. Long term, the facility has to be in different hands too protect all parties interests.
Beat me to it the Council is a MCS says just in the process of handing over all its facilities and putting them in the hands of an arms length company it has set up which will run them all to council policies on equality, access for all etc. That's the ideal place for the Stadium management to be positioned.
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Joined: Mar 11 2007 Posts: 5659 Location: Next to Ramsgate Sands c.1850 in West Hull
I did know about this new company - friends who currently work for the council are being moved to it.
So this would appear to be the opportune time. The council will never have a better time to act. The lease agreement that was posted on here clearly demonstrates it's terms for the arena have been broken. What could stop the council?
A £1M donation to the Labour party, perhaps? Are our Labour controlled council acting (or not!) under constraints issued by central office? Why was the motion to discuss the arena dropped at the last minute from the agenda of the full council meeting on Thursday?
Clever, devious, manipulative tactics at work here, I'll wager.
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WormInHand wrote:I did know about this new company - friends who currently work for the council are being moved to it.
So this would appear to be the opportune time. The council will never have a better time to act. The lease agreement that was posted on here clearly demonstrates it's terms for the arena have been broken. What could stop the council?
A £1M donation to the Labour party, perhaps? Are our Labour controlled council acting (or not!) under constraints issued by central office? Why was the motion to discuss the arena dropped at the last minute from the agenda of the full council meeting on Thursday?
Clever, devious, manipulative tactics at work here, I'll wager.
The £1million is only being offered if Labour loses money by reducing it's reliance on the Unions. As is common knowledge Ed Milliband won the leadership vote over his brother due to Union support, I can't see him upsetting the Unions because of that despite the best efforts of Blair, Allam and co to meddle in party affairs. But of course that situation could change if Labour do badly in the election.
I'm sure Labour would like the money (who wouldn't) but I'm equally sure that they won't be doing anything before the election with regards to indulging Dr Philanthropist's agenda over the SMC. Imagine if they did, it would 24 carat gold for their opponents, "businessman buys off council to shaft community venue" headlines. And that's without getting into whole political minefield of Labour funding by Unions or business or the (surely very slight) possibility that there would be other strings attache to Dr Philanthropist's donation.
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The Dentist Wilf wrote:Beat me to it the Council is a MCS says just in the process of handing over all its facilities and putting them in the hands of an arms length company it has set up which will run them all to council policies on equality, access for all etc. That's the ideal place for the Stadium management to be positioned.
I think there is an awful lot to be said for public control of public assets. Ultimately it is the public that bears any risk. Commercial entities are interested in profit (naturally enough) and when the prospect of those disappear, so do they. Public-private partnerships are poor de risking strategies, IMO.
How does this 'arms length' company thing work? Is it publically owned? Does it limit public liability?
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Its the same as the one that ran property maintenance at the Council many councils use them to offset direct costs and they are run as a company with Directors etc. They are not set up to earn a profit though which is the difference to a normal external company and as this one is to run theatres, halls, museums, sports centres, swimming facilities etc, (some of which are free of charge and others of which are subsidised) the council will pay them a fee to run the facilities with the company instead managing all the on costs setting the wage scales etc which is easier for a 'commercial' company to do compared with a burocracy. It is I think set up by the 'company' as a charitable trust which again brings big savings compared with an orgamisation inside the fabric of the council. Think that's it anyway!
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Last edited by The Dentist Wilf on Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ccs wrote:Loads of info about the new council company if you google "leisure company site:hullcc.gov.uk"
Thanks for that, it would appear that there was no thought about the KC coming under control by this new company in 2013 as it is not listed in the appendix. Leisure company business case pdf I would think we'd all know about it if the council had added on the stadium & was planning to take control through this organisation as it would have to be included in the business model. Despite what that bit of paper says & everything else regarding what the council are allowed to do (or what they might/might not act on) they would find it nigh on impossible to wrestle back control of the stadium. You think Allam would sit back and just say okay, you've got me, have it back.. , the council have made a rod for their backs pretty much from the off and by not intervening years back they've made the situation worse virtually beyond anything but piecemeal 'control'.
IF they've got some hyper plan to oust the Allam's grip on the stadium they need to get it laid on the table pretty sharpish because as things stand it's being running away from them for years. As I said, I just think they'll be a few concessions/compromises, a load of bluster and huffing and puffing and then the status quo (sic) will be as you were. If I'm wrong I'd be delighted but I just don't see the council having enough resolve/know how/legal footing etc to fix this properly.
ccs wrote:Loads of info about the new council company if you google "leisure company site:hullcc.gov.uk"
Thanks for that, it would appear that there was no thought about the KC coming under control by this new company in 2013 as it is not listed in the appendix. Leisure company business case pdf I would think we'd all know about it if the council had added on the stadium & was planning to take control through this organisation as it would have to be included in the business model. Despite what that bit of paper says & everything else regarding what the council are allowed to do (or what they might/might not act on) they would find it nigh on impossible to wrestle back control of the stadium. You think Allam would sit back and just say okay, you've got me, have it back.. , the council have made a rod for their backs pretty much from the off and by not intervening years back they've made the situation worse virtually beyond anything but piecemeal 'control'.
IF they've got some hyper plan to oust the Allam's grip on the stadium they need to get it laid on the table pretty sharpish because as things stand it's being running away from them for years. As I said, I just think they'll be a few concessions/compromises, a load of bluster and huffing and puffing and then the status quo (sic) will be as you were. If I'm wrong I'd be delighted but I just don't see the council having enough resolve/know how/legal footing etc to fix this properly.
Joined: Aug 30 2005 Posts: 3231 Location: in a cave
The Dentist Wilf wrote:Its the same as the one that ran property maintenance at the Council many councils use them to offset direct costs and they are run as a company with Directors etc. They are not set up to earn a profit though which is the difference to a normal external company and as this one is to run theatres, halls, museums, sports centres, swimming facilities etc, (some of which are free of charge and others of which are subsidised) the council will pay them a fee to run the facilities with the company instead managing all the on costs setting the wage scales etc which is easier for a 'commercial' company to do compared with a burocracy. It is I think set up by the 'company' as a charitable trust which again brings big savings compared with an orgamisation inside the fabric of the council. Think that's it anyway!
As Wilf says it will be a similar set up to the council's property maintenance & construction company Kingstown Works limited (KWL). The directors will all be councillors but it will have a professional management team.
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, the council have made a rod for their backs pretty much from the off and by not intervening years back they've made the situation worse virtually beyond anything but piecemeal 'control'.
