Joined: Oct 19 2003 Posts: 17898 Location: Packed like sardines, in a tin
rumpelstiltskin wrote:Easily sorted Dave, you are not going to get any of the newer EU members to agree with you, so simply pay out benefit at the same rate they would get in their home countries.
You missed Jerry's "feasible and legal" comment I take it? Do you work at Conservative Central Office?
Last time I looked we have to follow the rule of law, and Cameron should be fighting within the EU to change the law if he doesn't like it, not unilaterally taking his ball home. EU law, like other law, isn't pick and choose.
Of course if he does decide he doesn't like it and takes us out of the EU, I wonder if the 2.2million Brits living in other EU countries would be kicked out and rock up back here claiming housing and other benefits. That WOULD be interesting.
rumpelstiltskin wrote:That could happen, but I think the additional problems with finding Family sized accommodation, and the associated outlay is why they are still back in Poland. I'm sure the 4 fold increase in their benefits would have been a financial facter in any decision for the breadwinner to move here on his own. Remove the extra, and it may well be not worth it, and we could see a reverse migration.
Wages here are way higher here than in Poland so I doubt you'd see much reverse migration until that changed. Working in a supermarket gives about 10 times the pay as many well qualified people get in Poland. However homesick people are the figures make it very difficult for them to go home.
Chris28 wrote:You missed Jerry's "feasible and legal" comment I take it? Do you work at Conservative Central Office?
Last time I looked we have to follow the rule of law, and Cameron should be fighting within the EU to change the law if he doesn't like it, not unilaterally taking his ball home. EU law, like other law, isn't pick and choose.
Of course if he does decide he doesn't like it and takes us out of the EU, I wonder if the 2.2million Brits living in other EU countries would be kicked out and rock up back here claiming housing and other benefits. That WOULD be interesting.
As there have been enough recorded instances of other European countries selectively applying EU dictates, I don't see why we shouldn't either. Pay the benefits at the local rate, and invite the Powers that be to take their best shot!
Oh, and incidentally, as nothing is written in stone, you do not have to blindly obey any Law. Bad Law can sometimes be only changed by challenging it.......but you have to be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
Your hypothetical assessment raised a smile, as the Bold Dave is never going to take us out of Europe. I suspect though, that we would be well in credit accepting 2.2 million ex pats back, whilst loosing all those who came in the other direction over the last 40 years or so.
Joined: Oct 19 2003 Posts: 17898 Location: Packed like sardines, in a tin
rumpelstiltskin wrote:As there have been enough recorded instances of other European countries selectively applying EU dictates, I don't see why we shouldn't either. Pay the benefits at the local rate, and invite the Powers that be to take their best shot!
Oh, and incidentally, as nothing is written in stone, you do not have to blindly obey any Law. Bad Law can sometimes be only changed by challenging it.......but you have to be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions.
Your hypothetical assessment raised a smile, as the Bold Dave is never going to take us out of Europe. I suspect though, that we would be well in credit accepting 2.2 million ex pats back, whilst loosing all those who came in the other direction over the last 40 years or so.
Controversial stuff Chris!
At least we agree on the underlining! Stamping your feet and saying it isn't fair a la Cameron is not the way to behave or get things done. We would all be served better by our governments engaging with the EU and changing things from within. At the moment, everyone is in the EU tent and Cameron is getting wet.
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
Chris28 wrote:...EU law, like other law, isn't pick and choose.
...
It is for many EC countries when they don't like it. British meat exports to France anyone?
Among the jerking knees and entrenched positions, the question of who is allowed in your country must, as a matter of common sense, remain ultimately in the power of each sovereign country. They may not wish to admit it, but precisely NONE would allow totally unfettered, unlimited immigration from other member states. The combined population of the EU is maybe half a billion and if all the lot of them one day decided to excercise their right of free movement and set off for (say) Germany, that country would very simply and absolutely not permit it to happen.
This extreme simple illustration means that in fact there is no such thing as the mythical total freedom of movement, rather, it is just a question of degree; basically countries need to consider how much immigration, from where, of what kind, can be reasonably assimilated without harm to the country's vital interests. So, we have established that there is - MUST be - a de facto immigration policy in every state, and, whatever other countries may say, every one would impose controls and restrictions at some point.
Syrian refugees are of course non-EU citizens but their fate in attempting to seek sanctuary in the Eu does illustrate the true attitude of EU countries to admitting immigrants in any number. Of the millions of refugees, the whole EU has only offered a total of 15,244 places for temporary or permanent relocation*. (The UK proportion of that btw is Nil). I don't see any reason to think attitudes to mass immigration from within the EU would be much different.
Chris28 wrote:...EU law, like other law, isn't pick and choose.
...
It is for many EC countries when they don't like it. British meat exports to France anyone?
Among the jerking knees and entrenched positions, the question of who is allowed in your country must, as a matter of common sense, remain ultimately in the power of each sovereign country. They may not wish to admit it, but precisely NONE would allow totally unfettered, unlimited immigration from other member states. The combined population of the EU is maybe half a billion and if all the lot of them one day decided to excercise their right of free movement and set off for (say) Germany, that country would very simply and absolutely not permit it to happen.
This extreme simple illustration means that in fact there is no such thing as the mythical total freedom of movement, rather, it is just a question of degree; basically countries need to consider how much immigration, from where, of what kind, can be reasonably assimilated without harm to the country's vital interests. So, we have established that there is - MUST be - a de facto immigration policy in every state, and, whatever other countries may say, every one would impose controls and restrictions at some point.
Syrian refugees are of course non-EU citizens but their fate in attempting to seek sanctuary in the Eu does illustrate the true attitude of EU countries to admitting immigrants in any number. Of the millions of refugees, the whole EU has only offered a total of 15,244 places for temporary or permanent relocation*. (The UK proportion of that btw is Nil). I don't see any reason to think attitudes to mass immigration from within the EU would be much different.
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Dally wrote:Wages here are way higher here than in Poland
I'd hazard a guess that the cost of living is way higher here than in Poland too
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cod'ead wrote:I'd hazard a guess that the cost of living is way higher here than in Poland too
Only last year I got 2 pints of lager (which, was far nicer than any of the lagers you pick up in the uk) and 2 large vodka and cokes for less than £2 in poland. Admittedly, the pub reminded me of something you find in the eastern parts of hull, but still. Good luck getting a pint in the uk for less than £2
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
Last night on Question Time Labour's Chuka Umunna let slip that seemingly Labour thinks that the Eu never intended everyone to be able to go wherever or whenever, but just wanted freedom of movement of "workers". Pressed on this he would say he had had recent talks with representatives of other countries and hinted they agreed, pressed further he was cagey but the upshot was that Labour woould argue there should only be free movement of people with a job, leaving one job in one country to take up a post in another. It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25678829 It sounded very muddled and almsot makeing up policy as you go along, but what seems clear is Labour is against anyone without a job being able to enter the UK and claim any benefits; and that the only free movement of workers Labour approves of is people moving from one job elsewhere to an equivalent-or-better-skill job here.
Last night on Question Time Labour's Chuka Umunna let slip that seemingly Labour thinks that the Eu never intended everyone to be able to go wherever or whenever, but just wanted freedom of movement of "workers". Pressed on this he would say he had had recent talks with representatives of other countries and hinted they agreed, pressed further he was cagey but the upshot was that Labour woould argue there should only be free movement of people with a job, leaving one job in one country to take up a post in another. It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25678829 It sounded very muddled and almsot makeing up policy as you go along, but what seems clear is Labour is against anyone without a job being able to enter the UK and claim any benefits; and that the only free movement of workers Labour approves of is people moving from one job elsewhere to an equivalent-or-better-skill job here.
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Joined: Oct 19 2003 Posts: 17898 Location: Packed like sardines, in a tin
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Last night on Question Time Labour's Chuka Umunna let slip that seemingly Labour thinks that the Eu never intended everyone to be able to go wherever or whenever, but just wanted freedom of movement of "workers". Pressed on this he would say he had had recent talks with representatives of other countries and hinted they agreed, pressed further he was cagey but the upshot was that Labour woould argue there should only be free movement of people with a job, leaving one job in one country to take up a post in another. It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25678829 It sounded very muddled and almsot makeing up policy as you go along, but what seems clear is Labour is against anyone without a job being able to enter the UK and claim any benefits; and that the only free movement of workers Labour approves of is people moving from one job elsewhere to an equivalent-or-better-skill job here.
It certainly is muddled. After all, Chuka's government was a signatory to the 2004 EU Free Movement of Persons Directive, the first clause of which states
"Citizenship of the Union confers on every citizen of the Union a primary and individual right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaty and to the measures adopted to give it effect."
Nothing about it just being workers on a "one in, one out" basis. They had the chance to put "workers only" and even in capitals, bold and underlined, but they didn't, presumably as that wasn't what was intended when the document was drafted, discussed and agreed. "Every citizen" is pretty broad and clear in its meaning.
His government also introduced the "Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006" which sets out, effectively, how the 2004 Directive will be implemented and describes a "qualified person" (i.e. someone who benefits under EU law and free movement provisions) as including jobseekers.
When some of the 2.2m Brits around Europe start coming home on the basis that they also aren't workers in Spain or Germany or France, he might find himself in even more of a muddle.
I'm all for someone changing their minds about a policy, but to seemingly state that this was never intended is either, as you kindly put it, muddled, or downright disingenuous. It also shows that while immigration is a hot topic, those making the loudest sounds are the ones who know least about it.
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Last night on Question Time Labour's Chuka Umunna let slip that seemingly Labour thinks that the Eu never intended everyone to be able to go wherever or whenever, but just wanted freedom of movement of "workers". Pressed on this he would say he had had recent talks with representatives of other countries and hinted they agreed, pressed further he was cagey but the upshot was that Labour woould argue there should only be free movement of people with a job, leaving one job in one country to take up a post in another. It must follow that in Labour's view a person without a job should not be able to go to another country to look for work. And that if you have a skilled job on one country, you still shouldn't be allowed to move to another to do "low skilled" work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25678829 It sounded very muddled and almsot makeing up policy as you go along, but what seems clear is Labour is against anyone without a job being able to enter the UK and claim any benefits; and that the only free movement of workers Labour approves of is people moving from one job elsewhere to an equivalent-or-better-skill job here.
It certainly is muddled. After all, Chuka's government was a signatory to the 2004 EU Free Movement of Persons Directive, the first clause of which states
"Citizenship of the Union confers on every citizen of the Union a primary and individual right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States, subject to the limitations and conditions laid down in the Treaty and to the measures adopted to give it effect."
Nothing about it just being workers on a "one in, one out" basis. They had the chance to put "workers only" and even in capitals, bold and underlined, but they didn't, presumably as that wasn't what was intended when the document was drafted, discussed and agreed. "Every citizen" is pretty broad and clear in its meaning.
His government also introduced the "Immigration (EEA) Regulations 2006" which sets out, effectively, how the 2004 Directive will be implemented and describes a "qualified person" (i.e. someone who benefits under EU law and free movement provisions) as including jobseekers.
When some of the 2.2m Brits around Europe start coming home on the basis that they also aren't workers in Spain or Germany or France, he might find himself in even more of a muddle.
I'm all for someone changing their minds about a policy, but to seemingly state that this was never intended is either, as you kindly put it, muddled, or downright disingenuous. It also shows that while immigration is a hot topic, those making the loudest sounds are the ones who know least about it.
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