FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  

Home The Sin Bin So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:28 pm 
International Star
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Jul 09 2012
Posts: 3605
Location: Leeds
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10106437/Revealed-how-much-you-pay-towards-benefit-bill.html

The calculations by The Telegraph (above) are an attempt to replicate what HMRC are going to do next year, that is prepare personal statements to each taxpayer to show where their direct income taxation was spent in the previous 12 months.

Its not definitive, its the newspaper's best guess based on what HMRC have told them but it'll do as a rough guide to what the income tax and NIS deductions on your payslip are used for - unfortunately accompanied by the typical desire for every newspaper editor to put their own slant on things and in the process make massive assumptions and mis-report what could be a useful item.

For instance the headline uses the extrapolated figure of £200,000 over a lifetime of work that an individual on £50k would have contributed to "the welfare bill" and keeps emphasising this figure throughout in what you can only presume is some sort of shock tactic to support the current trend of demonising anyone who has the audacity to use any form of welfare, "they" being the "shirkers" in the current governments way of thinking.

What the newspaper doesn't go to great lengths to point out is that the Welfare item also includes pensions and so their example "middle class earner" who contributes £200k over 43 years will, unless they manage to die before 65 years of age (at the moment), start to draw on that welfare contribution.

By extrapolating the annual contribution into a career contribution they not only exaggerate the figure but seem to forget the point that a middle class £50k earner is highly unlikely to have earned the equivalent of £50k all of their life, will possibly have taken career breaks, or worked internships or apprenticeships, may have had years out during child raising, etc, etc, etc - there won't be too many who started work at 16 years of age on £50k or its equivalent figure in 1970 - the lifetime contributions are sensationalist rubbish and hopefully HMRC won't be going down this path, if they do then we know that they are being massively politically controlled.

Another point that The Telegraph seem to miss, or avoid, is the relatively small amount that the average earner pays towards a pension, a state pension without get-out clauses, one that does not rely on an insurance company to bid on your end-of-career pension pot in a sort of auction of generosity where you have to read the small print to make sure that your annuity is exactly what it seems at first reading - a state pension pays out until the day you die regardless of what you have paid in, and frankly at those annual contributions you would not receive anything like the figure in the state pension if you are on an average wage making those levels of contribution, nor would your "Welfare and Benefits" contribution pay for unlimited private health insurance either.

EU contributions come bottom of the list if you're on National Minimum Wage you could probably pay your annual EU contribution out of the change in your pocket right now, your next round in the pub will certainly be more than your annual EU contribution, your next pint in some pubs will be more in fact - will this take the focus away from the EU at the next election, is it really such a huge topic that at least one political party make it their total focus for power ?

If it makes interesting reading then you'll be getting your own personal one from next year, just in time for the next general election, will it make a difference to how you view the political parties manifesto's ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10106437/Revealed-how-much-you-pay-towards-benefit-bill.html

The calculations by The Telegraph (above) are an attempt to replicate what HMRC are going to do next year, that is prepare personal statements to each taxpayer to show where their direct income taxation was spent in the previous 12 months.

Its not definitive, its the newspaper's best guess based on what HMRC have told them but it'll do as a rough guide to what the income tax and NIS deductions on your payslip are used for - unfortunately accompanied by the typical desire for every newspaper editor to put their own slant on things and in the process make massive assumptions and mis-report what could be a useful item.

For instance the headline uses the extrapolated figure of £200,000 over a lifetime of work that an individual on £50k would have contributed to "the welfare bill" and keeps emphasising this figure throughout in what you can only presume is some sort of shock tactic to support the current trend of demonising anyone who has the audacity to use any form of welfare, "they" being the "shirkers" in the current governments way of thinking.

What the newspaper doesn't go to great lengths to point out is that the Welfare item also includes pensions and so their example "middle class earner" who contributes £200k over 43 years will, unless they manage to die before 65 years of age (at the moment), start to draw on that welfare contribution.

By extrapolating the annual contribution into a career contribution they not only exaggerate the figure but seem to forget the point that a middle class £50k earner is highly unlikely to have earned the equivalent of £50k all of their life, will possibly have taken career breaks, or worked internships or apprenticeships, may have had years out during child raising, etc, etc, etc - there won't be too many who started work at 16 years of age on £50k or its equivalent figure in 1970 - the lifetime contributions are sensationalist rubbish and hopefully HMRC won't be going down this path, if they do then we know that they are being massively politically controlled.

Another point that The Telegraph seem to miss, or avoid, is the relatively small amount that the average earner pays towards a pension, a state pension without get-out clauses, one that does not rely on an insurance company to bid on your end-of-career pension pot in a sort of auction of generosity where you have to read the small print to make sure that your annuity is exactly what it seems at first reading - a state pension pays out until the day you die regardless of what you have paid in, and frankly at those annual contributions you would not receive anything like the figure in the state pension if you are on an average wage making those levels of contribution, nor would your "Welfare and Benefits" contribution pay for unlimited private health insurance either.

EU contributions come bottom of the list if you're on National Minimum Wage you could probably pay your annual EU contribution out of the change in your pocket right now, your next round in the pub will certainly be more than your annual EU contribution, your next pint in some pubs will be more in fact - will this take the focus away from the EU at the next election, is it really such a huge topic that at least one political party make it their total focus for power ?

If it makes interesting reading then you'll be getting your own personal one from next year, just in time for the next general election, will it make a difference to how you view the political parties manifesto's ?






Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece
----------------------------------------------------------
Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork
----------------------------------------------------------
JerryChicken - The Blog
----------------------------------------------------------

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:55 pm 
International Board Member
International Board Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 03 2003
Posts: 28186
Location: A world of my own ...
When this idea was first mooted, I thought it was simplified, sensationalised bollards. I've not seen anything since to suggest differently.

Presumably the tax paid will simply be multiplied by the estimated percentage of UK public expenditure in each area to give the figures. How those are then categorised is open to political exploitation. Do you separate out benefits and pensions, or do you lump them together to exaggerate the figure, for example?

Presumably the breakdown for the NHS won't show what percentage of your "contribution" is ending up in the hands of private sector shareholders as dividends?






"As you travel through life don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin

//twitter.com/AndyGilder

//fromthewesternterrace.blogspot.co.uk

This week: Four keys to a Rhinos win in the WCC

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:39 pm 
International Star
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Jul 09 2012
Posts: 3605
Location: Leeds
Andy Gilder wrote:
Presumably the tax paid will simply be multiplied by the estimated percentage of UK public expenditure in each area to give the figures. How those are then categorised is open to political exploitation. Do you separate out benefits and pensions, or do you lump them together to exaggerate the figure, for example?



Well they haven't done it officially yet but this is what is already happening when the press try to replicate it, The Telegraph quoting the "Welfare" figure as a lifetime contribution and then suggesting that the "average" person will not get that money back in retirement is proof of the ultimate target market for this particular line of propaganda - its another way of blaming five years of recession and slow/no growth on a perceived underclass of "shirkers".

What they don't explain in quite so much details is that their lifetime contribution number is pure invention, that it includes pensions and is not just for benefit payments, and that the "average" salary that they used in inventing that figure was £50k, yep, thats pretty much an average salary around these parts - thats a 155 hour week for someone on minimum wage.






Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece
----------------------------------------------------------
Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork
----------------------------------------------------------
JerryChicken - The Blog
----------------------------------------------------------

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:04 pm 
International Chairman
Player Coach
User avatar

Joined: Dec 22 2001
Posts: 14845
I'm happy to pay whatever I'm asked to so long as it goes to the front-line of need. I am not happy to pay for political ego trips like weapons sysyems and fancy trains.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:18 pm 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2002
Posts: 14522
Location: Online
I'd pay as much as was asked if I knew that everyone was paying their fair whack to ensure that health, housing and education were available to all and that those in need were being fairly treated in my estimation.
I'd pay more than now to achieve that.

Tax is a civilising fund.






Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:48 am 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Dec 22 2001
Posts: 14395
Location: Chester
Perhaps there is an opportunity here to "reverse engineer" this to show how little some things do actually cost us?

I already did this kind of thing some time ago when looking into the cost to the taxpayer of funding University tuition. People paid a very small amount of their tax toward that so the low paid actually paid next to nothing per year (and the government spin implied they were virtually paying all the students fees).

So in a similar way perhaps the Labour party could, when being taken to task on spending use a similar mechanism to point out just how little some things actually cost.

With more realistic figures they could also point out how little some of the cuts will actually save and so use that to point out they are politically rather than economically motivated.

Unfortunately I doubt they will because at the moment they seem to let the Tories set the agenda and so it's all about who can cut the most rather than using figures like these to argue against them.

One thing that is not clear to me on glancing the article. Tax income for the government doesn't just come from income tax. So it would be interesting to know how things like reducing corporation tax down to 21% affects how much more personal income tax is required to fund the welfare state.






Last league derby at Central Park 5/9/1999: Wigan 28 St. Helens 20
Last league derby at Knowsley Road 2/4/2010: St. Helens 10 Wigan 18

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:53 am 
International Board Member
International Board Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr 03 2003
Posts: 28186
Location: A world of my own ...
I wonder what percentage of the UK's weekly Jobseekers Allowance costs would have been covered by the interest and penalties that Dave Hartnett unilaterally decided to waive for Goldman Sachs?






"As you travel through life don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things" - George Carlin

//twitter.com/AndyGilder

//fromthewesternterrace.blogspot.co.uk

This week: Four keys to a Rhinos win in the WCC

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:18 pm 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2002
Posts: 14522
Location: Online
Andy Gilder wrote:I wonder what percentage of the UK's weekly Jobseekers Allowance costs would have been covered by the interest and penalties that Dave Hartnett unilaterally decided to waive for Goldman Sachs?

... or Vodafone, whose tax bill he arbitrarily slashed, even after the court judgement that they should pay up the full £6bn.

Vodafone's auditors were Deloitte.
Dave Hartnett now works for Deloitte.
Pure coincidence, obviously.






Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:32 pm 
International Chairman
Player Coach
User avatar

Joined: Dec 22 2001
Posts: 14845
Clearly Ed Balls isn't prepared to pay much. He's talking about capping state pensions. Clearly, 2 Eds are scared stiff of getting into power and are intent on ensuring Labour are wiped out in 2015.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: So how much are YOU prepared to pay ?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:48 pm 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2002
Posts: 14522
Location: Online
Dally wrote:Clearly Ed Balls isn't prepared to pay much. He's talking about capping state pensions...

Is he?
I heard him say they'd cap the total welfare bill within which pensions would be included.
He might cap pensions, I don't know, he hasn't said... has he?






Freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice.
Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next





It is currently Fri Nov 29, 2024 1:27 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 105 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Fri Nov 29, 2024 1:27 pm
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
2025 Shirt
Akinwale Aro
26
11m
Mike Cooper podcast
Smiffy27
9
19m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63297
19m
Shirt reveal coming soon
vastman
48
25m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40832
26m
Film game
Boss Hog
5838
26m
Ground Improvements
Khlav Kalash
229
41m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
chapylad
2627
49m
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
15
Recent
Transfer Talk V5
christopher
544
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
2m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
chapylad
2627
2m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40832
3m
Getting a new side to gel
Highlander
8
4m
Salary Cap Changes Blocked - 11 votes to 1
Father Ted
18
5m
2025 Kit
bowlinboy
13
5m
2025 Recruitment
bowlinboy
228
8m
Film game
Boss Hog
5838
8m
Cornwall has a new owner
CM Punk
2
11m
Salford
ratticusfinc
63
15m
How many games will we win
18th Man
52
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
England Women Las Vegas train-on squad
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Quiz night
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
15
TODAY
Cornwall has a new owner
CM Punk
2
TODAY
Callum Shaw
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad Numbers
phe13
4
TODAY
Rhinos squad numbers
Rixy
1
TODAY
Squad numbers
Warrior Wing
8
TODAY
Mat Crowther pre season update
Dunkirk Spir
1
TODAY
Mike Cooper podcast
Smiffy27
9
TODAY
Shirt reveal coming soon
vastman
48
TODAY
Opening Championship and League One Fixtures for 2025 Released
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds - Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield - Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Fri 28th Feb
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Hull FC
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Salford
SL
20:00
Leigh-Catalans
Sat 1st Mar
SL
14:30
Wakefield - St.Helens
SL
21:30
Wigan-Warrington
Sun 2nd Mar
SL
15:00
Leeds-Castleford
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
2025 Shirt
Akinwale Aro
26
11m
Mike Cooper podcast
Smiffy27
9
19m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63297
19m
Shirt reveal coming soon
vastman
48
25m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40832
26m
Film game
Boss Hog
5838
26m
Ground Improvements
Khlav Kalash
229
41m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
chapylad
2627
49m
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
15
Recent
Transfer Talk V5
christopher
544
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
2m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
chapylad
2627
2m
Game - Song Titles
Boss Hog
40832
3m
Getting a new side to gel
Highlander
8
4m
Salary Cap Changes Blocked - 11 votes to 1
Father Ted
18
5m
2025 Kit
bowlinboy
13
5m
2025 Recruitment
bowlinboy
228
8m
Film game
Boss Hog
5838
8m
Cornwall has a new owner
CM Punk
2
11m
Salford
ratticusfinc
63
15m
How many games will we win
18th Man
52
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
England Women Las Vegas train-on squad
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Quiz night
H.G.S.A
1
TODAY
Co-Captains for 2025
MjM
15
TODAY
Cornwall has a new owner
CM Punk
2
TODAY
Callum Shaw
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad Numbers
phe13
4
TODAY
Rhinos squad numbers
Rixy
1
TODAY
Squad numbers
Warrior Wing
8
TODAY
Mat Crowther pre season update
Dunkirk Spir
1
TODAY
Mike Cooper podcast
Smiffy27
9
TODAY
Shirt reveal coming soon
vastman
48
TODAY
Opening Championship and League One Fixtures for 2025 Released
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.