Joined: Mar 05 2007 Posts: 13190 Location: Hedon (sometimes), sometimes Premier Inn's
Mintball wrote:But it's always been the case - this isn't new or governed by the single factor of immigration or migration.
Just one example: Borough was, at the end of the 19the century, a police no-go area. It's doubtful that it was polite society. But now, it's incredibly trendy and with a far lower population than was estimated then.
I live in Haggerston in Hackney and have done for 18 years this July. It's changed out of Ll recognition. Indeed, the Kingsland Estate, at one end of 'my' road was apparently considered one of the very worst in the UK. It's been run-down as long as I've known it, but hasn't been that bad, and is now being rebuilt to house an ncaingly well-to-do, rather trendy population.
In the 1960s, the Krays and other gangs ran up to this area.
We need to be careful in being too rosy-tinted about the past.
Never said it wasn't bad in the past, just responding to a post.
My first home was in a $h!thole of an area, no inside tap or bog, but you try and tell the kids of today !!! Sorry couldn't resist it.
'when my life is over, the thing which will have given me greatest pride is that I was first to plunge into the sea, swimming freely underwater without any connection to the terrestrial world'
Joined: Mar 05 2007 Posts: 13190 Location: Hedon (sometimes), sometimes Premier Inn's
Mintball wrote:Didn't the Nazis go down the route of swearing allegiance etc? Along with many other dictatorial, totalitarian regimes. Indeed, isn't that one of the hallmarks of such?
Swearing an allegiance is not limited to the likes of the Nazis, it's commonplace in a lot of countries, especially in the armed forces. Nothing wrong with a bit of pride, although I would not like to swear allegiance to the monarch now I am a bit older and wiser.
'when my life is over, the thing which will have given me greatest pride is that I was first to plunge into the sea, swimming freely underwater without any connection to the terrestrial world'
Mintball wrote:Didn't the Nazis go down the route of swearing allegiance etc? Along with many other dictatorial, totalitarian regimes. Indeed, isn't that one of the hallmarks of such?
Yep. Dally probably thinks totalitarianism is a price worth paying if it rids our shores of Johnny Foreigner.
Christianity: because you're so awful you made God kill himself.
Joined: May 10 2002 Posts: 47951 Location: Die Metropole
rover49 wrote:Never said it wasn't bad in the past, just responding to a post.
My first home was in a $h!thole of an area, no inside tap or bog, but you try and tell the kids of today !!! Sorry couldn't resist it.
Fair enough – it wasn't intended as any sort of attack on you. Just that one ends up, in this sort of discussion, feeling a need for almost pedantic clarity.
"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller
"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant
"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Joined: May 10 2002 Posts: 47951 Location: Die Metropole
rover49 wrote:Swearing an allegiance is not limited to the likes of the Nazis, it's commonplace in a lot of countries, especially in the armed forces. Nothing wrong with a bit of pride, although I would not like to swear allegiance to the monarch now I am a bit older and wiser.
I would point out that I didn't suggest it was just the Nazis or, indeed, the only symbol of a dictatorial/totalitarian state.
I would say, to clarify, that I was thinking of the civilian population and not the military.
The idea of 'pride' about where I come from always rather confuses me. I didn't do anything to be proud of. But that's not to say that I'm 'ashamed' of it either – indeed, far from it. I'm English – that's a fact – and there are things about this country and its heritage that I love and others that I don't.
My parents did the 'pride' thing. And I never could 'get it' then. It took me many years to 'find' my Englishness. And really rather like it – but 'pride'? A confusing idea when you think about it, I think.
"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller
"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant
"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
DaveO wrote:Until the investigations are concluded how do you know they weren't just a pair of deluded psychotic morons who latched onto this "cause" compared to any other?
They aren't your typical Muslim Extremest as they are still alive i.e. not Martyred! Why didn't they attack the Army Barracks? Why didn't they attack the public once having got their soldier?
As I said Lord Reid has already decided they are terrorists and May wants the snoopers charter back. In my view it would be far better if it turns out they were as I describe.
Lending weight to their motives in describing them as terrorists and what they did an act of terror instead of murder doesn't do anyone any favours.
If after the investigation is concluded it turns out they have been off to training camps and were groomed for the attack, fair enough. Until them lumping this in the same basket as 9/11 , 7/7 or any IRA attacks is just not helpful and is in fact dangerous IMO.
I don't think you need to visit training camps or be a member of a larger organisation to be considered a terrorist, not in my view. I appreciate the potential ramifications but I can't see this as anything other than an act of terror.
My gut feeling is - and I don't want to be presumptuous and pretend I know how you specifically think - is that if these two men killed a soldier with a small bomb, as opposed to in the manner that they did, that there wouldn't even be a debate about their act of terrorism, it would be an open and closed case.
Even if acting on their lonesome it's still an act of terror from my point of view.
rover49 wrote:I drove to South Shields and Sunderland today and passed some of the nicest places you could wish for,
Dunno if you are still there,at South Shields,but slightly off topic and possibly not known but there is This History and the visit of a world respected muslim to the same place to open a mosque Story
rover49 wrote:I drove to South Shields and Sunderland today and passed some of the nicest places you could wish for,
Dunno if you are still there,at South Shields,but slightly off topic and possibly not known but there is This History and the visit of a world respected muslim to the same place to open a mosque Story
Devils Disciples required - No initiation ceremony needed just enter AJ Bell Stadium on Gameday to be accepted.
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
If you didn't listen to Radio 4's PM programme today, it really is worth a lsiten on iPlayer. Especially the bit where Eddie Mair trots off to Woolwich and interviews some of the locals, one young lad in particular:
"Our grandfathers fouht for our freedom in the war, if they were alive today they'd be spinning in their graves"
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
Joined: Apr 13 2002 Posts: 3569 Location: enjoying the fresh air,moors and beaches of devon and cornwall
toast wrote:Can I just point out that this is not a terrorist attack.
At the least, it's a racial assault ( or would be if it was white on black), at worst, it's a religious attack/assault. The 2 beng questioned are religious fanatics. You find these bigots all over the world.
Rip to the soldier.
The govt,police, security services etc are infact calling this a terrorist attack.Are you in any of those listed organisations? if not how can you STATE it wasnt a terrorist attack!!!! BTW it wasnt an assault either, it was a disgusting barbaric pre meditated murder.
why in your own little world is white on black racist but not black on white !!!
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion" – -- Unknown
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