Oh god – where to start!? And that's not meant as a derogatory comment, BTW.

Well first, why would a hetro male behave in a feminine manner if they liked girls?

The thing is, in my experience (which is not all and everything) people mostly don't 'act' as anything – they're essentially what they are and may or may not act in a way that emphasises that – within cultural models (in effect). So yeah, you'll get the guy (gay or not) who is effeminate and you'll get the guy (gay or not) who is macho.

I hate cliches, but look at Gareth Thomas – he's hardly a cliche of campness, is he? And he's not alone. David Walliams, who is camp but not, apparently, gay.

I think we get very trapped with types and get suckered into seeing most other human beings within a very limited (and limiting) set of templates.

I am not going to get into a disagreement with you BUT to be completely genuinely gender neutral IMHO is impossible unless you cut yourself off from traditional society.

You may have done all of the obvious things BUT on a practical level unless you and your wife never wore gender specific clothes your children will automatically have picked up on gender roles.

Did you wear skirts or dresses very often . Who drove the car etc etc

Who had the larger portions of food at mealtimes etc.

To be gender neutral in your parenting would IMHO require such a level of awareness and changes in behaviour that it would make it difficult to function in modern soceity.

If you lived on a desert island you may have a chance

Neither of us wears skirts or dresses very often. Until relatively recently neither did my daughter. We have two cars and the kids spent more time being driven around by my wife than me.




Seriously, just


Are you a parent?

Look - I'm aware of certain practical limitations and the influence of outside society. I'm not daft. But in the early years you have near 100% control over the development of your kids. You can absolutely control what ideas and influences they are exposed to, and you are by far and away their most important role model. And we weren't entirely passive, either. We had discussions about gender stereotyping and encouraged them both to be what they wanted to be and not what anyone else thought they ought to be.

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make TBH.

I know what your saying but I've always wondered why gay celebrities like Graham Norton camp it up to high heaven and sort of form people's views on how gays behave and act, now I wonder if people like Gareth Thomas and Stone Wall feel aggrieved at this as its detrimental to the cause so to speak for example:

I saw a piece on Granada Tonight a few years ago about the Manchester Pride Parade and there was a fat 50 year old bloke dressed in silver hot pants, angel wings and a cowboy hat blowing bubbles at the crowd, now if that's not detrimental to the cause of overcoming bigoted views on gays then I don't know what is.

I honestly think it's as simple as we're all different - and that iLife's some people being camp and others not. Camp is simply one of very many 'types', so to speak.

Unless we genuinely believe that it would be 'better' for every human being to be the same, then it would surely be good to celebrate our differences. There are many things that differentiate us - sexuality/gender is far from the foremost.

You are the one who felt that because you had gender neutral parenting there must be something else at play for them to develop into traditional gender roles i was pointing out that i do not believe that you can be gender neutral in a gender orientated society as there are too many things you cannot control all you can do is mitigate against the worst elements of it which is what you appear to have done by your comment that you do not have barbie and a macho man.



I was pointing out that gender development effectively starts from day one when a child is born. Regardless of your parenting others will respond to them on the basis of their perceptions of gender.

If you called your children by names which identified there sex then people automatically respond to them in different ways.

If your girl was called Jill people say isnt she pretty if your son is called jack people say he looks like his dad. All of that is contributing to the development of gender roles. People talk to children differently depending on their sex which begins to inform their gender awareness as i gave an example in a previous post.

Did your son see you shaving your face and maybe notice his mummy didnt all of this affects awareness of sexual and physical differences and creates within a child that because they have a certain sex then they should behave in a certain way.

Obviously the less things that influence that will manage it as they are younger BUT as soon as they start interacting with wider society then those gender roles start devloping.

You say

at what age do you think other things start influencing them. At what stage do you think others start influencing them more. My son was brought up to be a Man United fan, his mum supports them his grandad who he dotes on is a mad Man U fan. I would probably name them as my favoured team. He had man U teddies, wallpaper and quilt cover. He watched Man u games with his mum and grandad. He went to Old Trafford.

Yet when he was 6 his best friend at school persuaded him to support Liverpool in a matter of two weeks. 12 years later he is still a Liverpool fan.

I stick by my point unless you live on a desert island it would be virtually be impossible to protect your children from copying or being aware of gender roles.
.

Do you perceive it as detrimental?

That's a different a matter, and based on what society at any one time dreams okay etc. but that has change
D and continues to do so.

Best left sidestep since Brad Fitler

Nowt wrong with bears chief.

Do you perceive it as detrimental?[/quote]

No, why do you?

It's fifty year old bloke having what sounds like a top day and more than likely a rather smashing night out.