It has been widely reported. Google his name, and that phrase. Im sure you will be able to find it.

I could see people, i couldnt see their expressions, their faces were blurred.

How on earth are you judging this? What does an angry face look like on grainy CCTV footage which doesnt show the face?

yes, other than for what he has admitted.


To make things up about class of political persuasion doesn’t help your argument, even a little bit.
There is evidence that one police officer passed on information to an MP whilst pretending to be a member of the public. That is it, you are inventing the rest with no supporting evidence whatsoever. You should employ the same innocent until proven guilty standpoint to the police as you are to Mr Mitchell.

You have been making repeated claims that Mitchell has accepted he made threats to the police. As this is a cornerstone of your crumbling argument which I have challenged it is up to you to prove your point. I have read Mitchell´s account of the event and he denies making threats to the police.

If your whole argument is based on unsubstantiated internet tittle tattle which just quotes the allegations it would explain your viewpoint.



When people have an angry confrontation, as alleged by the police, then there is usually arms and head movements which show this clearly. The body language of Mitchell is consistent with him saying that he muttered the F word as he pushed his bike towards and through the pedestrian gate.




As I said anger and temper would show in the body language.You do not need to show the face.




But he has only admitted using the F word.




Do you deny your whole case and "knob" style language is not politically motivated?




1. The first evidence is that a serving police officer who is in the same unit as those at the gate sent an email into the Government Whip´s office pretending to be a member of the public who witnessed the altracation. This same officer has since admitted that not only is he not a member of the public but that he was not present and had fabricated his statement. The fact that his email was almost the same as the police log would indicate some form of collusion.

2. The second evidence is that this confidential police log was leaked to the press from the Met.

3. The third bit of evidence is that the Police Federation told a lie in their public statement after meeting with Mitchell.

4. And the 4th bit of evidence is that the CCTV shows no members of the public present at the gate to be "visibly shocked" by the "toxic" utterings making this part of the police log incorrect and so throwing doubt on the rest of it.

Do you deny any of this evidence against the police?

Fair enough, i can prove that it has been widely reported. Here is an example, there are plenty more if you dispute how widely this was reported but in the interests of space I have included this His allies this weekend admitted he had said words to the effect of “you haven’t heard the last of this” - which they believe prompted officers to write up an exaggerated version of events in their police log, which was then leaked. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9763005/Andrew-Mitchell-the-toxic-smears-aimed-at-destroying-my-party-and-me.html

Now would you like to provide us with proof of your assertion that Mitchell has made a clear statement denying he said words to that effect? Afterall we wouldnt want your argument relying on unsubstantiated tittle-tattle would we.


This may be news to you, but you can shout, you can swear, you can threaten, you can even sing a jaunty sea shanty without waving your arms and head about. Mr Mitchell was accused of swearing and arrogant behaviour, he wasn’t accused of doing an impression of Kevin and Perry.

And his allies have admitted to him threatening the police.


Yes.


Firstly police officers are members of the public, they are, uniformed members of the public. It does not, in any way shape or form indicate collusion, it indicates that the officer who was there had seen the police log which isnt out of the ordinary.


Have the sun confirmed it was the met that leaked the log? Innocent until prove guilty remember......
I think lie is a fairly strong word for that fairly superfluous statement.

It quite clearly show one member of the public, with another couple a bit further away. I dont know if they were shocked or not.
yes, because quite clearly none of it is evidence of anything at all.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... roses.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... roses.html

The issue was not about it being widely reported or misreported. If people are going to make judgements on the behaviour of others and call for them to lose their jobs it is not good enough to do it based on hyped up gossip on the internet.

I asked you for a direct quote from Mitchell himself which admits he made threats to police. Without this you cannot substantiate your main point.

This quote is not from Mitchell and its nothing more than hearsay. To say it is from his allies is questionable as he has enemies within his own party after leading the leadership campaign for David Davies. And having said that the quote is vague in any case “words to the effect of ...’you haven’t heard the last of this’ ” is hardly a threat and something anyone should be allowed to say to a policeman who they thought was being over officious and who they intended to report.




Andrew Mitchell wrote an article for the Sunday Times in which he recorded his side of events: including “I never uttered those phrases they are completely untrue”. He does admit to using the F word and gives his word for word recollection of the discussion with the policeman. In his version it would seem the officer is being unhelpful and a bit obstructive and displaying a touch of traffic warden syndrome.

If you wish I can post all of his version but it will take some time to draft.




The allegation is that he lost his temper and displayed anger. But the CCTV does not show any sign of this in his body language.



I am not interested in what third parties are saying as this is not evidence. You said that Mitchell himself had admitted to using threats.



So if your standpoint is not political why do you rush to castigate Mitchell when there is no proof, yet defend the police when doubt has been raised about:

1. the accuracy of log itself (CCTV)
2. supporting police evidence was criminally false (policeman admitted it)
3. someone from the Met leaked the confidential police log to the media
4. the Police Federation told lies to the public and behaved in a very political manner (on tape)



The policeman who sent the email pretending to be a member of the public who witnessed the event to corroborate the police log was in fact not present (1st lie) he was not one of the members of the "visibly shaken" public at the gates he claimed to be (2nd lie) and gave false witness with the same story as the log (3rd lie) Yet you maintain this is not out of the ordinary.



The confidential police log was leaked to the media. (fact). So it had to be someone at the Met that did it my dear Watson. The question is, was it corrupt police officer who leaked it for money? Or did they do it for political reasons?




Well I am not sure what you mean by “superfluous statement” But Ian Edwards (Chairman of the west Midlands police Federation) asked for a meeting and Mitchell to clear the air. It was agreed that the location of the meeting would not be disclosed. (In reality the federation lined up as much of the press as it could muster) Federation officials minus Edwards arrived 30 minutes early and briefed the massed press and told the waiting journalists that they would demand to know what Mitchell had said at the Downing Street gates and if he failed to tell them they would demand he must be sacked.

The meeting lasted 45 minutes and Mitchell told them exactly what had happened and what he had said and what he had not said. The officials brought the meeting to a sharp close in time to get a quote on the six o’clock news. One of them announced to the reporters that Mitchell had refused to tell them what he had said at the gates and therefore should resign.

However a Conservative press officer had taped the whole encounter which clearly showed the reporters were not told the truth. Or as we say in our part of the world they told a lie!




The CCTV shows no one in front of the gates and only one person walking past (to be invisibly shocked)



Why do you think none of this evidence? when you believe your google tittle tattle.

Neither you nor I know who is really telling the truth it is one word against another. However I maintain he has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, no matter which political party he is from, which so far has not happened.

You've got a good eye if you can tell that from the footage, particularly as none of it shows Mitchell's face, which is probably a greater indicator of his demeanor than looking at him from behind 50ft away.

...with no audio.


That camera must be located almost opposite the door to 10 Downing Street - can you imagine if, as we are supposed to believe, that is the only cctv source of the gates and approach to the home of our PM - can you imagine the aftermath of a terrorist attack on the gates which overpowered the three police officers there and led to Downing St being bombed and sacked and left in flames with our PM dead, "Police have examined the Downing St cctv and can't quite make out who the terrorists were, or if they were black, white or some other shade inbetween, or even people, sorry"

I've read that article and have no reason to not believe it and have no reason to not believe that the Police Federation have set up the Minister.

However you must always keep in mind that the Police Federation are NOT "The Police", they are a trades union and as such they have, and are entitled to, a political viewpoint and they entitled to campaign on issues that affect their members, I don't believe that they picked on Mitchell deliberately as he wouldn't be their natural target to protest at cuts to their members working conditions, but due to his obstinacy (something he is reknown for within his party) he presented them with a political situation that they exploited to the full and possibly beyond.

What they did may ultimately prove to be wrong, but they took advantage of a political situation in the same manner that politicians of all colours do every day in their debating chamber, its something they practice well and its something their party leaders are proficient in and view as perfectly acceptable within their profession - they should have been able to spot what was going on and declare this to the media immediately that it was occuring and before Mitchell felt that he had to resign (they had three weeks to do so after all).

The fact that they didn't, the fact that Mitchell had been appointed by them only shortly before, and the fact that they simply accepted his resignation without media protest against dubious political shenanignas only serves to highlight the fact that Mitchell got no back up from his seniors who must surely have reviewed ALL of the available evidence before turning their backs on him ?



As I've said all along, there is a VERY simple solution, release the real video and audio recordings.

And if they don't want them in the public domain then let the PM see them and then make a public statement on what he has concluded and then draw a line under the whole affair, I'll trust him on this occasion - or maybe he already has and thats why he is refusing to get drawn in ?

You are forgetting that the onus is on those of you who were so quick to judge Mitchell as guilty to prove him so. The only people who have been proven to be liars so far are all from the police side you may recall.

The CCTV does not show Mitchell in any way as having a temper rant and is more consistant with his version that says he was muttering the F word as he pushed his bike towards and through the pedestrian gate.

The Police Federation are a Union representing the rank and file police officers, but are made up of serving and former police officers. They have led the way in the witch hunt against Mitchell and have made much of the word "pleb". This I agree is their right and I have no sympathy with Mitchell (or any other politician) on this score who IMO has been very naive in his own defence.

However whilst not expecting this union to act in an honourable manner with regard to their handling of the media, I do think we can expect them not to tell a blatant lie, about a crucial point, to the media when reporting what was said in their meeting with Mitchell.

The timing of Mitchell's resignation and of his colleagues doubting his innocence was brought about by the malicious email that was purported to come from a member of the public that witnessed the verbal exchanges. As this email fully supported the police log and was real evidence as to Mitchell's guilt it was no wonder that he felt he had to resign. Since then we know that this email was a fabrication from a Police officer from the same unit who was nowhere near the scene at the time but too late for Mitchell to keep his job.

I very much doubt that the PM or Mitchell himself had looked at the CCTV before he resigned other wise he would not have resigned.

It was a case of media mob justice stoked up by the Police Federation, the Labour front bench and the media.

You keep asking for the "real video and audio recordings" to be released as though the ones so far seen are not "real". I doubt if there will be audio recordings but agree that it would be helpful to see more footage of the CCTV.

Having said that the police log stated "There were several members of the public present, as is the norm opposite the pedestrian gate, and as we neared it Mr Mitchell said 'Best you learn you f****** place.....You don't run this f****** government.....Your'e f****** plebs', The members of the public looked visible shocked"

The CCTV footage so far released does cover the period and place where the fracas is supposed to have taken place and casts serious doubt on the police log with regard to the witnesses.

So I would not hold your breath that more footage will confirm the police account.

No one has come out of this smelling of roses and it will be interesting to see who Mitchell will sue. It is only a matter of time before someone takes action against libel made in postings on forums such as this one.