FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  

Home The Sin Bin Workers' rights - government assault goes on



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:53 am 
International Chairman
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Apr 29 2002
Posts: 18802
Location: Onward bound to Valhalla !
Dally wrote:No. Who'd polish their shoes?


Or polish something else :wink:






Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:59 pm 
International Chairman
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Feb 27 2002
Posts: 18060
Location: On the road
rhino phil wrote:Ill preface this by saying I am absolutely no fan of the coalition or the tories.

However as fas as I am aware the only two effects on health and safety legislation that are proposed within this legislation are a removal of strict liability under for eg Reg 4 of PUWER essentially taking us back to the position prior to Stark v Post office 2000 and removing a vicarious liability for harrasment again reversing Majorowski v Guys ans St Thomas. Neither remove a right to pursue compensation or for an award to be made against a negligent employer

Stark was always a very narrow interpretation of PUWER 4. This regulation broadly imposes a duty on an employer to maintain their work equipment (the regulation includes the word shall- this is important!) In the case of Stark the Claimant, a postman was riding his bike when his peddle snapped and he fell and was injured. He sued alleging that the bike was not properly maintained. The post office defended the claim on the basis that they had maintained the bike and its peddle. It was regularly inspected and the failure of peddle simply could not be anticipated or reasonably prevented. They therefore contended that they had demonstrated a more than reasonable system of maintenance and had discharged their duty under the regulation. I.e the accident was not their fault. The courts ultimately held however that as the wording of PUWER stated that employers shall maintain equipment, there was no room for 'so far as reasonably practicable' and the duty was absolute. as such they held that the fact the peddle snapped was evidence itself that the bike had not been maintained and imposed a strict liability. Following this case if any work equipment is 'defective ' irrespective of whether an employer could should or even did maintain it they are liable for their employees injury. Removing this strict interpretation of what was an EU directive is only levelling the playing field. If an employer hasnt bothered to maintain their work equipment and this breaks and injures employees they will still be in breach of PUWER. This change will only benefit employers who had proper systems of inspection and maintenance in place already but were being penalised by the strict liability provisions of stark. If anything it will be an incentive to step up maintenance etc as at present their is no reward for doing so in litigation (although obvioulsy this should help prevent the accident in teh first instance)

and breathe


Excellent post - perhaps the OP and Mintball should have read this before jumping on the bandwagon of propaganda and miss direction.






Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:24 pm 
All Time Great
All Time Great
User avatar

Joined: May 10 2002
Posts: 47951
Location: Die Metropole
Sal Paradise wrote:Excellent post - perhaps the OP and Mintball should have read this before jumping on the bandwagon of propaganda and miss direction.


And Henry Dimbleby, obviously.

After all, what would a businessman know, eh?






"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller

"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant

"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

The Voluptuous Manifesto – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:44 am 
International Board Member
International Star
User avatar

Joined: Apr 27 2003
Posts: 8633
Surely Mr Dimbleby was referring to the sort of H&S rule that is made up on the spot by over-zealous management and/or H&S official rather than cases where all reasonable and practical precautions to prevent an accident have been taken?
I'm not sure, from what you've said, that he'd criticise regular maintenance of a (fairly) essential piece of day-to-day equipment.

If you took the court decision to it's logical conclusion, then every single time that a machine breaks and causes injury, then each and every similar machine should be withdrawn from use - why allow paperboys to use pushbikes if they've caused 'provable' harm?






God is nothing more than an imaginary friend for grown ups.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:58 am 
Player Coach
Player Coach

Joined: Mar 05 2007
Posts: 13190
Location: Hedon (sometimes), sometimes Premier Inn's
With the new £124 per hour 'fee for intervention' being charged by HSE from 1st October to allow them to be 'self funding', you might see them a bit keener to jump on employers from now on. Hopefully it will target 'bad' employers rather than those who have done what they can as in the pedaL incident.






'when my life is over, the thing which will have given me greatest pride is that I was first to plunge into the sea, swimming freely underwater without any connection to the terrestrial world'

Yves Le Prieur, the real inventor of the aqualung

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:09 am 
All Time Great
All Time Great
User avatar

Joined: May 10 2002
Posts: 47951
Location: Die Metropole
Scooter Nik wrote:Surely Mr Dimbleby was referring to the sort of H&S rule that is made up on the spot by over-zealous management and/or H&S official rather than cases where all reasonable and practical precautions to prevent an accident have been taken?


Exactly.

Which is what I'd mentioned earlier – in my one previous contribution to this thread – and is presumably, therefore, what Sal was referring to when he accused me and the OP of "jumping on the bandwagon of propaganda and miss direction".

The only other points that I can imagine him taking issue with was the fact that farms have now been exempted from inspections, in spite of the levels of accidents and fatalities, and that at least one government minister has stated that there is nothing wrong with H&S legislation itself – the issue is with interpretation. I then offered the Dimbleby comments as support for this, noting that there are cases exactly as you say here.

Either way, though, these seem to be "the bandwagon of propaganda and miss direction". :D






"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller

"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant

"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

The Voluptuous Manifesto – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:20 am 
Club Owner
Club Owner

Joined: May 24 2006
Posts: 22777
Nevermind a legal obligation under H+S legislation companies have a moral obligation to protect employees who are in the course of their employment. I have no sympathy with companies who try and dodge that obligation. If the equipment used by the employee in the course of their work breaks, and the employee is injured the company has a responsibility to compensate that employee. The risk is the companies to bear and not the employees. I have no sympathy with the PO in the example given, it is a risk which should be factored in to their business plan and one they should have accepted.

The one which always gets me, is this governments attempts to remove unfair dismissal protections. Which by their very definition, are there to protect people from being treated unfairly. Its selfish nonsense from a government who seems to think that businesses are there to benefit a greedy minority at the top rather than society as a whole. If a business cannot survive without treating its employees unfairly, then that business shouldn’t survive.






//www.pngnrlbid.com

bUsTiNyAbALLs wrote:Do not converse with me you filthy minded deviant.


vastman wrote:My rage isn't impotent luv, I'm frothing at the mouth actually.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:48 am 
Player Coach
Player Coach
User avatar

Joined: Jan 15 2007
Posts: 11924
Location: Secret Hill Top Lair. V.2
Removing H&S legislation from farms just seems utterley incredible.

Having worked on a number of farms as Summer jobs in between college and universtiy years I've never come across a more dangerous place of work or indeed a more dangerous set of employees.

Perhaps with increased mechanisation this is how we solve rural unemployment.






If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle.

Frederick Douglas

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:17 pm 
All Time Great
All Time Great
User avatar

Joined: May 10 2002
Posts: 47951
Location: Die Metropole






"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller

"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant

"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

The Voluptuous Manifesto – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Workers' rights - government assault goes on
PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:20 pm 
International Chairman
International Board Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 17 2002
Posts: 28357
Location: MACS0647-JD
Sal Paradise wrote:Excellent post - perhaps the OP and Mintball should have read this before jumping on the bandwagon of propaganda and miss direction.

On the contrary, a misguided post, all the more so by praing in aid the postman case which in fact, and ironically, provides you with a salutary lesson.

In the postman on a bike case, the employee was injured when a front brake caliper broke. According to the case report, the Post Office had a policy of replacing bicycles at 10 years, but didn't treat it as a rule and as they thought this bicycle had a few years serviceable life left, they didn't pension it off. The bicycle was in its 14th year.

The brake probably broke due to metal fatigue. After 14 years of daily use, it is not a shock. However without strict liability, the PO would have had plenty of potential for a "get ou" by arguing that they did check the bike, that it seemed OK, that they couldn't have detected the metal fatigue, that bikes are expensive, that they acted reasonably, why throw away what seems to eb a perfectly serviceable machine, etc etc.

Whereas in fact if they had followed their own policy the postman never would have been injured. Given that he was, and given that the specific cause was a metal failure on a 14 year old bike, provided by his employer, why should he have to jump through hoops and combat the inevitable defences? They took the risk of using ageing equipment and so they, and not their innocent employee, are the obvious party that should pay the price.

The following excerpt is taken from the case report - with my emphasis:
Quote: It is quite true that the sub-section, so read, imposes a heavy burden upon employers, but the object of this group of sections is to protect the workman. I think the sub-section must have been so worded in order to relieve the injured workman from the burden of proving that there was some particular step which the employers could have taken and did not take. This would often be a difficult matter, more especially if the cause of the failure of the mechanism to operate could not be ascertained. The statute renders the task of the injured workman easier by saying, "You need only prove that the mechanism failed to work efficiently and that this failure caused the accident.""


The law in this case worked exactly as I think it should. The employee was injured due to metal failure on work equipment provided for his use by his employer. That was, and clearly should be, enough. Change the law and you plainly open the door to the postman not being compensated at all. And before you go off on another of your rants, perhaps you should bear in mind that even with strict liability in place, the employer was defending this claim and, had it not been for strict liability, his employer may well have escaped paying him compensation, and that, to me, would have been the clearest of injustices.






Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next





It is currently Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:37 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Sat Nov 16, 2024 7:37 pm
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
12m
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
hull2524
12
48m
Film game
karetaker
5373
53m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63094
Recent
Paladin Sports
orangeman
19
Recent
Out of contract 2025
Smiffy27
32
Recent
Squad 2025
MP
42
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
The Brick Stadium ownership update
Azul
38
1m
Recruitment rumours and links
Moe syslak
3548
1m
Film game
karetaker
5373
1m
Paladin Sports
orangeman
19
2m
Out of contract 2025
Smiffy27
32
2m
Tom Johnstone
FIL
42
3m
2025 Recruitment
Highlander
175
4m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63094
4m
2025 Squad Discussion
Wigan Bull
54
5m
A Year to Remember
Zig
4
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Misi Taulapapa
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Season tickets
Rixy
4
TODAY
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
hull2524
12
TODAY
9000 season ticket holders announced
Bombers Doub
1
TODAY
Merry Christmas
orangeman
7
TODAY
I dont think this is a good signing for the Leopards
Huddersfield
9
TODAY
Red Devils sign International forward
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Hospitality packages including new refurbished Foxs Bar
AgbriggAmble
10
TODAY
Offiah on Salary Cap
Shifty Cat
11
TODAY
removing posts
Dannyboywt1
10
TODAY
Season pass roll call
UllFC
32
TODAY
Positivity Pact
Sebasteeno
3
TODAY
Jack Coventry
Wanderer
1
TODAY
A Year to Remember
Zig
4
TODAY
2025 Annual
JamieRobinso
1
TODAY
2025 KIT Thread
Jimmythecuck
2
TODAY
NRL Kick Off Rules
stpatricks
7
TODAY
Garry Schofield
PopTart
6
TODAY
Out of contract 2025
Smiffy27
32
TODAY
Gary Schofield
hull2524
10
TODAY
Joe Phillips
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Andy Ellis
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Manoa Wacokecoke
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jeylan Hodgson
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Mackenzie Harman
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Ben Dent
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Callum Rutland
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Harry Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jack Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Garry Schofield
rubber ducki
14
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1021
England's Women Demolish The W..
877
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1102
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
902
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1168
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1694
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
1952
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2200
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1772
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2013
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2474
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
1916
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
2007
Hull KR Survive Warrington Fig..
2184
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
2317
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
12m
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
hull2524
12
48m
Film game
karetaker
5373
53m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63094
Recent
Paladin Sports
orangeman
19
Recent
Out of contract 2025
Smiffy27
32
Recent
Squad 2025
MP
42
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
1m
The Brick Stadium ownership update
Azul
38
1m
Recruitment rumours and links
Moe syslak
3548
1m
Film game
karetaker
5373
1m
Paladin Sports
orangeman
19
2m
Out of contract 2025
Smiffy27
32
2m
Tom Johnstone
FIL
42
3m
2025 Recruitment
Highlander
175
4m
BORED The Band Name Game
Boss Hog
63094
4m
2025 Squad Discussion
Wigan Bull
54
5m
A Year to Remember
Zig
4
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Misi Taulapapa
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Season tickets
Rixy
4
TODAY
RIP Keith Hepworth 1942-2024
hull2524
12
TODAY
9000 season ticket holders announced
Bombers Doub
1
TODAY
Merry Christmas
orangeman
7
TODAY
I dont think this is a good signing for the Leopards
Huddersfield
9
TODAY
Red Devils sign International forward
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Hospitality packages including new refurbished Foxs Bar
AgbriggAmble
10
TODAY
Offiah on Salary Cap
Shifty Cat
11
TODAY
removing posts
Dannyboywt1
10
TODAY
Season pass roll call
UllFC
32
TODAY
Positivity Pact
Sebasteeno
3
TODAY
Jack Coventry
Wanderer
1
TODAY
A Year to Remember
Zig
4
TODAY
2025 Annual
JamieRobinso
1
TODAY
2025 KIT Thread
Jimmythecuck
2
TODAY
NRL Kick Off Rules
stpatricks
7
TODAY
Garry Schofield
PopTart
6
TODAY
Out of contract 2025
Smiffy27
32
TODAY
Gary Schofield
hull2524
10
TODAY
Joe Phillips
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Andy Ellis
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Manoa Wacokecoke
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jeylan Hodgson
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Mackenzie Harman
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Ben Dent
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Callum Rutland
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Harry Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Jack Aldous
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Garry Schofield
rubber ducki
14
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
England Beat Samoa To Take Tes..
1021
England's Women Demolish The W..
877
England Beat Samoa Comfortably..
1102
Operational Rules Tribunal –..
902
IMG-RFL club gradings released..
1168
Wakefield Trinity Win Champion..
1694
Hunslet Secure Promotion After..
1952
Trinity Into Play Off Final Af..
2200
Wigan Warriors Crowned Champio..
1772
York Valkyrie Win Back to Back..
2013
Hunslet Book Relegation Play O..
2474
Penrith Panthers Secure Fourth..
1916
Wigan Humiliate Leigh For Gran..
2007
Hull KR Survive Warrington Fig..
2184
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
2317


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.