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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:58 am 
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Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:On the Hillsborough Independent Panel there was the Bishop of Liverpool, Peter Scruton, author of Hillsborough: The Truth and Kate Jones, a producer on McGovern's Hillsborough documentary.

Raju Bhatt had led legal action against South Yorkshire Police over the miners strike.

Peter Sissons was born and raised in Liverpool.





and???






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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:13 am 
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Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:You make conclusions as accurately as you quote a headline.

Saying he believed the officers version of events when they told them to him doesn't mean he reported what they said as fact. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.


To claim that someone didn't report something as fact – when they have themselves have actually stated that they had no reason to disbelieve it – is ridiculous and desperate.

Together with trying to smear the panel as biased.






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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Mintball wrote:To claim that someone didn't report something as fact – when they have themselves have actually stated that they had no reason to disbelieve it – is ridiculous and desperate.


Patnick said, "I am not aware of names ranks or numbers of the officers but I do believe they were telling me the truth.

Saying you believe someone is not the same as saying you have no reason to disbelieve it. But you obviously have a major problem with accurately quoting anything.

But here is the White's News Agency report which MacKenzie used: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 010001.pdf

Quote:Last night, Sheffield Tory MP, Irvine Patnick, backed up police claims that Liverpool fans attacked and urinated on them as they tended the injured and dying.
He said: I spoke to many policemen in the makeshift mortuary aftenwards. They told me they were hampered, harassed, punched, kicked and urinated on by Liverpool fans. I have kept quiet about this because I did not want to inflame a delicate situation.
But it is a fact that these are the stories they told me and they had no reason to lie, I saw the bruising on their bodies and the state they were in and there is no doubt in my mind it is true,
All this happened to them and yet they carried on doing their job trying to save lives and now they are being blamed,
One important question that must be answered is what part alcohol played in this whole tragic business'.


So he made it clear that he was relying on information told to him by police officers.

Patnick was clearly wrong to say that the officers had no reason to lie. They could have been lying as a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they failed in their duty to protect innocent people. They could have been suffering shock and confused events that happened an hour before the crushing as happening at the same time as people were dying. They could have suffered from the same problems as you in not being able to accurately give the correct year without making an error.

Quote:Together with trying to smear the panel as biased.


I never made any comment over whether they were biased.

Biased is too strong a word, especially as I don't know any of them. But I do think that the author of Hillsbrough: The Truth and a producer of McGovern's Hillsborough documentary have no place on an independent panel on Hillsborough.

I think that if any blame was placed on some Liverpool fans by the panel that the Bishop of Liverpool would find that his position as Bishop would be untenable.

I think that if a panel who found that there was misbehaviour by some Liverpool fans, and that panel included someone who had previously published a critical analysis of some LFC supporters, you would be screaming about bias.
Mintball wrote:To claim that someone didn't report something as fact – when they have themselves have actually stated that they had no reason to disbelieve it – is ridiculous and desperate.


Patnick said, "I am not aware of names ranks or numbers of the officers but I do believe they were telling me the truth.

Saying you believe someone is not the same as saying you have no reason to disbelieve it. But you obviously have a major problem with accurately quoting anything.

But here is the White's News Agency report which MacKenzie used: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/ ... 010001.pdf

Quote:Last night, Sheffield Tory MP, Irvine Patnick, backed up police claims that Liverpool fans attacked and urinated on them as they tended the injured and dying.
He said: I spoke to many policemen in the makeshift mortuary aftenwards. They told me they were hampered, harassed, punched, kicked and urinated on by Liverpool fans. I have kept quiet about this because I did not want to inflame a delicate situation.
But it is a fact that these are the stories they told me and they had no reason to lie, I saw the bruising on their bodies and the state they were in and there is no doubt in my mind it is true,
All this happened to them and yet they carried on doing their job trying to save lives and now they are being blamed,
One important question that must be answered is what part alcohol played in this whole tragic business'.


So he made it clear that he was relying on information told to him by police officers.

Patnick was clearly wrong to say that the officers had no reason to lie. They could have been lying as a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they failed in their duty to protect innocent people. They could have been suffering shock and confused events that happened an hour before the crushing as happening at the same time as people were dying. They could have suffered from the same problems as you in not being able to accurately give the correct year without making an error.

Quote:Together with trying to smear the panel as biased.


I never made any comment over whether they were biased.

Biased is too strong a word, especially as I don't know any of them. But I do think that the author of Hillsbrough: The Truth and a producer of McGovern's Hillsborough documentary have no place on an independent panel on Hillsborough.

I think that if any blame was placed on some Liverpool fans by the panel that the Bishop of Liverpool would find that his position as Bishop would be untenable.

I think that if a panel who found that there was misbehaviour by some Liverpool fans, and that panel included someone who had previously published a critical analysis of some LFC supporters, you would be screaming about bias.

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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Patnick said, "I am not aware of names ranks or numbers of the officers but I do believe they were telling me the truth.


Yes. He believed that was he was told was the truth. In other words, factually accurate. In other words, facts.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Saying you believe someone is not the same as saying you have no reason to disbelieve it. But you obviously have a major problem with accurately quoting anything.


If you believe something to be "the truth", then you do not disbelieve it. He even said, in the quote you posted: "there is no doubt in my mind it is true". In other words, he accepted what he had been told as facts – and passed it on as such.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:So he made it clear that he was relying on information told to him by police officers...


Nobody has suggested otherwise. He was not at the match. He was told things by police officers. He believed that what they had told him was "the truth". He passed on what he had heard to the agency.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:Patnick was clearly wrong to say that the officers had no reason to lie. They could have been lying as a coping mechanism to deal with the fact that they failed in their duty to protect innocent people. They could have been suffering shock and confused events that happened an hour before the crushing as happening at the same time as people were dying. They could have suffered from the same problems as you in not being able to accurately give the correct year without making an error...


So, lots of reasons – except the arse-covering one.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:I never made any comment over whether they were biased...


You didn't need to. What you posted stated it for you, quite clearly.

Biased is too strong a word, especially as I don't know any of them. But I do think that the author of Hillsbrough: The Truth and a producer of McGovern's Hillsborough documentary have no place on an independent panel on Hillsborough...[/quote]

Strange that you don't suggest that a retired senior policeman would have no place on an independent panel, given the circumstances. Of course, if you believe the job they did was affected negatively by such things, you'll be able to provide the proof, instead of just making snide, cowardly hints.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:I think that if any blame was placed on some Liverpool fans by the panel that the Bishop of Liverpool would find that his position as Bishop would be untenable...


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So the results were fixed to avoid any awkwardness. Oh pur-leese.






"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller

"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant

"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde

The Voluptuous Manifesto – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:38 pm 
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Considering the staggering amount of information now out that both vindicates and condens various bodies and individuals on many levels is this thread really getting detailed page after page with someone trying to defence in someway one of them?

I'd also take that prick out the title as a more general discussion on Hillsborough - THE TRUTH!






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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Mintball wrote:So, lots of reasons – except the arse-covering one.


Patnick said the allegations were from front line cops. Why do they need to cover their arses?

Quote:Of course, if you believe the job they did was affected negatively by such things, you'll be able to provide the proof, instead of just making snide, cowardly hints.


Like you provided the proof of Patnick deserving to be stripped of his knighthood?

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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Seems to me Patnick's importance was that he was an early "witness" independent of the police. His submission reports what he did / was told and his opinion on what he was told. He is not stating what he heard was fact. Fact.

It seems to me that those wishing to strip him of titles, etc are conspiracy theorists who must therefore be of the opinion that his submission was deliberately slanted as part of some elaboraate cover up? Perhaps they feel his was leaned on / encouraged by ministers? If they do, can they please provide some evidence, say what they believe or stop sniping?

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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:37 pm 
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On the night of the Hillsborough disaster Irvine Patnick believed what he had been told by a few officers that they had personally been abused, witnessed abuse of dead bodies and been hampered in their efforts by violent fans.

After the Hillsborough Independent Panel Patnick seems to have accepted that those officers were lying to him.

Why does Patnick now believe that those allegations were lies?

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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Documentary about Hillsborough currently on Channel 5.

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 Post subject: Re: Kelvin MacKenzie
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:31 am 
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Dally wrote:Documentary about Hillsborough currently on Channel 5.


Did you learn anything?

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