Anyway, back to Marxism being back. As I said, it never went away. Another illustration is that Marxists wanted to control the "commanding heights of the economy" (I believe a phrase attributed to Lenin). The UK Labour party of the '50s / '60s saw this as controlling production of coal, steel, the railways, etc. The irony is that with the collapse of those industries, the state has taken over a much greater share of employment and GDP than was represented by those industries - by virtue of its control of health, education, pensions and now even major banks. One could argue that we have reached the socialist nirvana that the founding fathers of the Labour party aspired to.
Joined: May 10 2002 Posts: 47951 Location: Die Metropole
Dally wrote:I did do.
Then you can point to the specific Marxist texts that propose that "directors" act "as though they were running workers co-operatives by paying out disproportionate levels of remuneration to their colleagues rather than to shareholders and / or leaving working capital in the businesses (which could have prevented nationalistation, the formalised acknlowledgement of their socialism)."
You will obviously also be able to point to "workers co-operatives" that have shareholders other than the workers.
Dally wrote:Anyway, back to Marxism being back. As I said, it never went away. Another illustration is that Marxists wanted to control the "commanding heights of the economy" (I believe a phrase attributed to Lenin). The UK Labour party of the '50s / '60s saw this as controlling production of coal, steel, the railways, etc. The irony is that with the collapse of those industries, the state has taken over a much greater share of employment and GDP than was represented by those industries - by virtue of its control of health, education, pensions and now even major banks. One could argue that we have reached the socialist nirvana that the founding fathers of the Labour party aspired to.
No. "One" wouldn't argue any such nonsense.
Unless "one" was a total idiot.
"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller
"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant
"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Come on then Mintball, although you claim not to be a socialist at times you do, judging by your posts, seem to be seduced by socialist philosophy. So, how would you you ideally like to see the UK's political and economic life re-enginerered to fit your image of what's right and proper. Do you then see that vision as sustainable and how do you see it affecting the lives of the average citizen - for good, for ill or no real difference?
Joined: May 10 2002 Posts: 47951 Location: Die Metropole
Dally wrote:Come on then Mintball, although you claim not to be a socialist at times you do, judging by your posts, seem to be seduced by socialist philosophy. So, how would you you ideally like to see the UK's political and economic life re-enginerered to fit your image of what's right and proper. Do you then see that vision as sustainable and how do you see it affecting the lives of the average citizen - for good, for ill or no real difference?
You have claimed something – now back it up instead of trying to dodge by changing the subject.
What EVIDENCE do you have for your assertions?
"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller
"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant
"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
Mintball wrote:You have claimed something – now back it up instead of trying to dodge by changing the subject.
What EVIDENCE do you have for your assertions?
Well I thought I gave pretty good evidence - it is fact that the state controls a huge chunk of the UK economy. It is a fact that the state controlled industries are unionised. It is a fact that the country is in decline, arguably due to the inefficiency of state planning of economic activity.
So, come on then - do you have a vision or like most other wannabee socialists you just like to snipe about everything but cannot ever suggest anything, let alone construct anything?
Last edited by Dally on Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: May 10 2002 Posts: 47951 Location: Die Metropole
Dally wrote:Well I thought I gave pretty good evidence - it is fact that the state controls a huge chunk of the UK economy. It is a fact that the state controlled industries are unionised. It is a fact that the country is in decline., arguably do to the inefficiency of state planning of economic activity.
So, come on then - do you have a vision or like most other wannabee socialists you just like to snipe about everything but cannot ever suggest anything, let alone construct anything?
You gave no evidence whatsoever.
What is the textural basis for your claims about Marxism?
What workers' cooperative has shareholders other than the workers?
These are specific questions raised by your claims. Now stop trying to deflect the conversation and answer these.
"You are working for Satan." Kirkstaller
"Dare to know!" Immanuel Kant
"Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive" Elbert Hubbard
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars." Oscar Wilde
banks and unions all state planning of of economic activity is inefficient
you made my lunch-time
Sad preacher nailed upon the coloured door of time;
Insane teacher be there reminded of the rhyme.
There'll be no mutant enemy we shall certify;
Political ends, as sad remains, will die.
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