Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
rover49 wrote:...If its just a case of replacing them with another type because of worry, then do what you did before, pay for it yourself
Not because of "worry", but because of the statistic that out of 40,000 implants, 7% - that is, 2,800 - WILL leak. That would be not too far off one woman in every 14, facing consequences which a consultant surgeon calls "significant".
Let's say you had a model of car, and had had the standard brakes upgraded to a bigger and better set, which were guaranteed for 10 years. Then you found out that due to substandard parts (but which were imported under a 'government approved' scheme) approx.7% of them would suffer a total brake failure at some point. Would you have the same attitude to that?
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Joined: May 10 2002 Posts: 47951 Location: Die Metropole
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Not because of "worry", but because of the statistic that out of 40,000 implants, 7% - that is, 2,800 - WILL leak. That would be not too far off one woman in every 14, facing consequences which a consultant surgeon calls "significant".
Let's say you had a model of car, and had had the standard brakes upgraded to a bigger and better set, which were guaranteed for 10 years. Then you found out that due to substandard parts (but which were imported under a 'government approved' scheme) approx.7% of them would suffer a total brake failure at some point. Would you have the same attitude to that?
Well indeed. And then – if we're being simply hard-nosed about it – does the NHS refuse to treat anyone who, as a result, gets cancer, on the basis that it's 'self-inflicted'?
I repeat – I am absolutely of the opinion that the companies/practices that carried out the work in the first place should remove the implants when those women who had them come and ask for that.
But if, say, a company that did that has already gone bust (so to speak), then I wonder if some of the contributors here would say that the women can't have them removed unless they themselves cough up first? Even if it's possible it will cost more in the long term because of the quite serious possible health consequences?
Don't get me wrong: I'm not 'pleased' by this as an idea. But then I'm equally not 'pleased;' by a society that places so much stress on how one sex in particular looks. And there are plenty of people on this forum who have, when that question has arisen in the past, effectively shrugged and said, 'that's the way it is – deal with it'.
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Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Not because of "worry", but because of the statistic that out of 40,000 implants, 7% - that is, 2,800 - WILL leak.
Where does this 7% come from? I've not seen any figures that suggest such a high failure arte
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
cod'ead wrote:Where does this 7% come from? I've not seen any figures that suggest such a high failure arte
That figure was the one said to be taken from one of the big providers, Transform, who said that that the failure rate of PIP implants it had used in procedures since 2006 which use industrial grade silicone rather than medical grade stood at 7 per cent.
On their website at the moment is the following comment:
Quote:3rd January 2012 Press reports over recent days suggesting Transform's PIP implant rupture rate of 7% is information that has been taken out of context and is misrepresentative. In the interest of clarification and to alleviate undue anxiety amongst patients, Transform has not used PIP implants since 2005 with the exception of 108 patients out of the tens of thousands of procedures it has undertaken.The figure of 7% was based on seven cases out of the 108 patients. This is therefore far too small a sample to provide a robust statistical analysis.
So it's 7% Jim - but not as we know it.
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Ferocious Aardvark wrote: On their website at the moment is the following comment: So it's 7% Jim - but not as we know it.
You suprise me with that.
Even you should accept that is a very small sample group to be able to extrapolate any reasonably accurate figures
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
cod'ead wrote:..
Even you should accept that is a very small sample group to be able to extrapolate any reasonably accurate figures
Not happy with the "even you", but letting that pass, I would say that a failure rate of 7% of 108 since 2005 is a scary failure rate, and would point out that that is only in a few short years. I would also say that if 7% of new or relatively new inserts are failing, then with age and wear and tear, I would expect the failure rate of the 108 to increase with time.
I would certainly think it absurd to suggest that, of the 108, despite 7 or so having already failed, not a single one of the rest ever will.
I would also say that given leaks are by no means always easily diagnosed, the only way to be certain in any given case would be by MRI scan, and those are pretty costly. I think it much more likely than not that there are women who do have leaking PIP implants, but don't yet know it.
So the issue which concerns me is not one of extrapolation "reasonably accurate figures" but of how worried you should be if you have some of those things inside you. I'd bet even you would be.
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
Snide comment, that. Of course each claim is also a potential paying job for a lawyer, but do you therefore think that innocent victims of such cockups should be left entirely to their own devices, then? What is wrong with advertising to them a free method of access to justice? Or should such access only be for those who can afford to pay for it?
I haven't seen you criticising the ambulance-chasing adverts of all the motor insurance companies who absurdly, given that they have all been losing money for decades, spend millions advertising for your insurance dollar with fat opera singers, meerkats, red phones and the rest.
I also haven't seen you criticising any of the cosmetic surgery clinics who advertise extensively, often in targeted lifestyle magazines, but increasingly on TV too.
I wonder therefore why you chose to make THAT point? If someone is able to offer these women specialist help, at no cost to them, why would you think there is something wrong with that?
Do you have similar views about adverts for other distress purchases such as motor breakdown, faulty boilers, etc.? Or have you swallowed the insurer/government line that many victims only need an apology and a bunch of flowers?
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Joined: May 25 2002 Posts: 37704 Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Ferocious Aardvark wrote: So the issue which concerns me is not one of extrapolation "reasonably accurate figures" but of how worried you should be if you have some of those things inside you. I'd bet even you would be.
Sorry to disappoint and I realise that genuine real-life opinion may not help your argument but, as previously stated, it's a fair bet that Emma has PIP implants and she ain't worried.
But please don't let that divert you from your scaremongering
The older I get, the better I was
Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't
I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."
cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
cod'ead wrote:Sorry to disappoint and I realise that genuine real-life opinion may not help your argument but, as previously stated, it's a fair bet that Emma has PIP implants and she ain't worried.
But please don't let that divert you from your scaremongering
The genuine real-life opinion of the French government is that they will pay for 30,000 French women to have their PIP implants removed. In France the official rupture rates with the PIP implants is five per cent. Are the French government scaremongering?
There is a group action about to start in the UK. Many women with PIP implants are said by lawyers in the court case to have experienced "agonising problems, including ruptures and leakages". I suggest that this is a bit beyond scaremongering.
Tim Goodacre, president of the British Association of Plastic, Reconstructive and Aesthetic Surgeons (BAPRAS), an Oxford University lecturer and a member of the government's panel investigating the scandal said that if the panel confirmed the findings of rupture rates "found by the country’s biggest cosmetic surgery company – in which almost one in 14 implants had leaked – then they should all be taken out in every case". Is he scaremongering?
French medical device regulatory authority Afssaps, which suggests a failure rate of about 5% in France, says:
As of December 28, 2011, updated data for 1143 indicate materiovigilance breaks 495 prostheses and inflammatory reactions with or without perspiration of the gel through the envelope. In addition, 20 cases of cancer have been reported in women with breast implants PIP (1 case of anaplastic large cell lymphoma, 15 cases of mammary adenocarcinoma, one case of tonsillar lymphoma, 1 case of follicular lymphoma, 1 case adenocarcinoma of the lung and one case of acute myelogenous leukemia).
In addition, 672 explantations preventive conducted at the request of the patient were reported to Afssaps, 23 ruptures and 14 perspiration discovered explantation.
Sorry to disappoint and I realise that genuine real-life opinion may not help your argument but, as previously stated, if it were me or my missus, I would be worried.
But please don't let that divert you from your dismissive claptrap, as I'm sure you know better than the French government, or the doctors.
cod'ead wrote:Sorry to disappoint and I realise that genuine real-life opinion may not help your argument but, as previously stated, it's a fair bet that Emma has PIP implants and she ain't worried.
But please don't let that divert you from your scaremongering
The genuine real-life opinion of the French government is that they will pay for 30,000 French women to have their PIP implants removed. In France the official rupture rates with the PIP implants is five per cent. Are the French government scaremongering?
There is a group action about to start in the UK. Many women with PIP implants are said by lawyers in the court case to have experienced "agonising problems, including ruptures and leakages". I suggest that this is a bit beyond scaremongering.
Tim Goodacre, president of the British Association of Plastic, Reconstructive and Aesthetic Surgeons (BAPRAS), an Oxford University lecturer and a member of the government's panel investigating the scandal said that if the panel confirmed the findings of rupture rates "found by the country’s biggest cosmetic surgery company – in which almost one in 14 implants had leaked – then they should all be taken out in every case". Is he scaremongering?
French medical device regulatory authority Afssaps, which suggests a failure rate of about 5% in France, says:
As of December 28, 2011, updated data for 1143 indicate materiovigilance breaks 495 prostheses and inflammatory reactions with or without perspiration of the gel through the envelope. In addition, 20 cases of cancer have been reported in women with breast implants PIP (1 case of anaplastic large cell lymphoma, 15 cases of mammary adenocarcinoma, one case of tonsillar lymphoma, 1 case of follicular lymphoma, 1 case adenocarcinoma of the lung and one case of acute myelogenous leukemia).
In addition, 672 explantations preventive conducted at the request of the patient were reported to Afssaps, 23 ruptures and 14 perspiration discovered explantation.
Sorry to disappoint and I realise that genuine real-life opinion may not help your argument but, as previously stated, if it were me or my missus, I would be worried.
But please don't let that divert you from your dismissive claptrap, as I'm sure you know better than the French government, or the doctors.
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
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