FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  

Home The Sin Bin Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:42 pm 
Club Owner
International Star
User avatar

Joined: Apr 27 2003
Posts: 8633
Cibaman - If you look at the case cited by Ferocious Ardvark, you'll find that they were willing participants too, yet felt the whole weight of the law.

Where is the real difference?






God is nothing more than an imaginary friend for grown ups.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:19 pm 
Player Coach
First Team Player
User avatar

Joined: Feb 23 2006
Posts: 1978
Cibaman wrote:Boxers "fight" as a matter of course but clearly aren't breaking the law. They are willing participants. They're not committing affray (as might be the case in a pub brawl) because a bystander wouldnt be put in fear by their actions.

Context if everything.


But boxers sometimes commit more harm to an opponent than you can consent to in law?!

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:57 pm 
Player Coach
Player Coach

Joined: Mar 05 2007
Posts: 13190
Location: Hedon (sometimes), sometimes Premier Inn's
McLaren_Field wrote:Surely you have to enforce the criminal law above any sport rules and regulations though ?



Although some industries seem to have standards above the law of the land. On 5 live today several public bodies were asked what would happen to an employee in their particular field under such circumstances where racial incidents had been alleged. It seems that if you are a teacher and are prosecuted in a court of law and a jury of your peers finds you not guilty, you can still be dismissed after all that, as is also the case in the prison service.

It seems the word alone of the 'offended' person is enough in these professions to render the due process of the law irrelevant.

While the offence of racial crimes should not be tolerated in any walk of life, are we now saying that our laws are not enough to prevent your conviction by other means should you prove your innocence in a court of law. It seems a charter for anyone with a grudge to be able to destroy the life of another by accusation, rather than proof.






'when my life is over, the thing which will have given me greatest pride is that I was first to plunge into the sea, swimming freely underwater without any connection to the terrestrial world'

Yves Le Prieur, the real inventor of the aqualung

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:59 pm 
Club Coach
International Star
User avatar

Joined: Oct 10 2004
Posts: 6392
Location: Glasgow
Wnidyone2012 wrote:I thought maybe wrongly that Big Dunc was done for the head butt and other factors played a part in the prison sentance and not some community punishment.


He'd been done for assault before, more than once. The ref at the game missed it and the SFA used video evidence to ban him later for 10 or 12 matches iirc.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:45 am 
International Chairman
International Chairman
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2002
Posts: 32466
Location: Leeds
rover49 wrote:Although some industries seem to have standards above the law of the land. On 5 live today several public bodies were asked what would happen to an employee in their particular field under such circumstances where racial incidents had been alleged. It seems that if you are a teacher and are prosecuted in a court of law and a jury of your peers finds you not guilty, you can still be dismissed after all that, as is also the case in the prison service.

It seems the word alone of the 'offended' person is enough in these professions to render the due process of the law irrelevant.

While the offence of racial crimes should not be tolerated in any walk of life, are we now saying that our laws are not enough to prevent your conviction by other means should you prove your innocence in a court of law. It seems a charter for anyone with a grudge to be able to destroy the life of another by accusation, rather than proof.


Personally, if I were a teacher or in a profession under similar duress and threat of summary dismissal on the word of another, then I would find myself a union with a record of defending its members properly in an employment tribunal - possibly that is the reason why teaching and other civil service unions are still quite strong ?






Someday everything is gonna be different, When I paint my masterpiece
------------------------------------------------------
The Jerry Chicken Blog Page
------------------------------------------------------
BUY MY ART ONLINE AT ARTGALLERY.CO.UK

AT THE RIPPINGHAM GALLERY
....................................................................
ART PROFILE
...................................................................
On Twitter
...................................................................
On Facebook
...................................................................

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:39 am 
International Chairman
International Board Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 17 2002
Posts: 28357
Location: MACS0647-JD
Ajw71 wrote:But boxers sometimes commit more harm to an opponent than you can consent to in law?!


No, because it starts off with the winning card that it is a "lawful activity". Boxing has managed (to date) to retain a legal get out of jail card, on the grounds that boxing per se is a lawful activity. And that legal classification makes all the difference, because even when violence is intentionally inflicted and results in actual bodily harm, wounding or serious bodily harm there is no offence committed if the injury was a foreseeable incident of a lawful activity in which the person injured was participating.

This lawful status was very much a split decision.

There is no intellectual justification making boxing legal though many have tried. It is just it has become widely accepted (though by no means unanimously) as useful to society, and professional boxing rides immune on the back of that (for now). The issue in the case of boxing is simply whether it is a "lawful activity", and in the past, the Courts have on balance held that it is.

It was never a unanimous view. In a venerable 1803 legal tome, referring to violent physical pursuits such as wrestling, prize-fighting and boxing, East said:
"the latitude given to manly exercises of the nature above described, when conducted merely as diversions among friends, must not be extended to legalise prize-fighting, public boxing matches and the like, which are exhibited for the sake of lucre, and are calculated to draw together a number of idle disorderly people..."

Many would, two centuries later, concede he had a point.

The court commented in Brown:
"That the court is in such cases making a value-judgment, not dependant
upon any general theory of consent is exposed by the failure of any attempt
to deduce why professional boxing appears to be immune from prosecution.
For money, not recreation or personal improvement, each boxer tries to hurt
the opponent more than he is hurt himself, and aims to end the contest
prematurely by inflicting a brain injury serious enough to make the opponent
unconscious, or temporarily by impairing his central nervous system through
a blow to the midriff, or cutting his skin to a degree which would ordinarily
be well within the scope of section 20. The boxers display skill, strength and
courage, but nobody pretends that they do good to themselves or others. The
onlookers derive entertainment, but none of the physical and moral benefits
which have been seen as the fruits of engagement in manly sports. I intend no
disrespect to the valuable judgment of McInearny J. in Pallante v. Stadiums Pty.
1976] V.R. 331[an Australian decision] when I say that the heroic efforts of that
learned judge to arrive at an intellectually satisfying account of the apparent immunity
of professional boxing from criminal process have convinced me that the task is
impossible. It is in my judgment best to regard this as another special situation
which for the time being stands outside the ordinary law of violence because
society chooses to tolerate it.
"






Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:41 pm 
Player Coach
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Feb 23 2006
Posts: 3796
Slightly off point, but would a similar case to Brown be decided the same if it came before the Supreme Court today? It's almost a 20 year old ruling now and there's some pretty old fashioned views on show from the majority. It was decided largely on the basis of the protection of morals, at a time when AIDS was probably still a big talking point. It's interesting reading the differences in opinion from the majority and the dissenting judgments - can't help but think that 20 years later, that case would have gone the other way...

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:47 pm 
International Board Member
International Star

Joined: Apr 10 2002
Posts: 6038
Location: Bradford
Scooter Nik wrote:Cibaman - If you look at the case cited by Ferocious Ardvark, you'll find that they were willing participants too, yet felt the whole weight of the law.


Where is the real difference?


It comes down to whether an observer would feel personally threatened. In a boxing match the participants are ringed off from the speccies as are fans at a rugby match. The difference between those types of fights and say a pub brawl is that the latter is much more likely to spill over and result in injury to innocent bystanders.

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3





It is currently Sun Sep 29, 2024 6:18 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 121 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Sun Sep 29, 2024 6:18 pm
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
9m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
Trebor1
2358
9m
Hull FC ladies
Hessle Roade
1
20m
The play-offs
dddooommm
6
20m
Kai
Septimius Se
1
22m
Trueman Confirmed
Kettykat
29
27m
Ground Improvements
1315trinity
57
32m
Not going to lie
easyWire
43
42m
Other Championship Clubs
Wollo-Wollo-
336
47m
Transfer Talk / Rumour thread V4
ArthurClues
10022
47m
Doncaster home
Trojan Horse
30
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
24s
Whitehaven Away
Listenup94
4
29s
Shopping list for 2025
Yippee try y
5257
30s
Leigh it is
apollosghost
15
1m
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
Jason65
2948
1m
SL Dream Team 2024
RAPIDO
11
1m
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
1m
Film game
karetaker
3964
1m
Other Championship Clubs
Wollo-Wollo-
336
1m
Squads - Devils v Leopards
Vancouver Le
17
1m
Le Cats at home - Los Alomos Custers Last Stand
Mr. Zucchini
115
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Hull FC ladies
Hessle Roade
1
TODAY
Kai
Septimius Se
1
TODAY
Travel to hull krdoes the club run coache
Fantastic Mr
4
TODAY
Wakefield v Dons - Sunday 29 September 2024
Wanderer
4
TODAY
The play-offs
dddooommm
6
TODAY
This years play off series
matt_wire
3
TODAY
Leigh it is
apollosghost
15
TODAY
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
TODAY
Must do better
Fantastic Mr
19
TODAY
Warrington Wolves Break Saints Hearts With Golden Point Win
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Todays match v Saints
Captain Hook
103
TODAY
We are in good hands
God
6
TODAY
Josh Charnley
Vancouver Le
2
TODAY
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off Progress In Eliminating Salford
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
superleague plus
karetaker
4
TODAY
New Owners
orangeman
1
TODAY
Josh Rourke
PopTart
14
TODAY
2025 Membership prices
WYSIWYG2
2
TODAY
Doncaster home
Trojan Horse
30
TODAY
Mike Cooper
morleys_deck
7
TODAY
Cooper Retiring with Immediate Effect
Moe syslak
11
TODAY
Matt Moylan
leyther
8
TODAY
Swinton A
Highlander
12
TODAY
Play Off Question
DannyT
20
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
253
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off P..
362
Catalans Dragons Finish Sevent..
911
Hull KR Secure Second With Vic..
973
Wigan Seal League Leaders Trop..
950
Wakefield Trinity Sweep Aside ..
1304
Catalans Keep Season Alive Wit..
1075
Salford Ensure Play-Offs And S..
1254
Ruthless Wigan Thrash the Rhin..
1427
Huddersfield Giants Hold Off L..
1623
Salford Close In On The Play O..
1410
Leigh Leopards Up To Fourth Af..
1539
Leeds Rhinos Into the Six Afte..
1703
Wigan Warriors Defeat Hull KR ..
1519
Wane Names Provisional Squad f..
1979
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Fri 4th Oct
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Warrington
Sat 5th Oct
SL
17:30
Wigan-Leigh
Sun 6th Oct
L1
15:00
Keighley-Hunslet
WSL2024
16:30
York V-St.HelensW
NRL
09:30
Melbourne-Penrith
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sun 29th Sep
L1 25 Rochdale26-46Hunslet
CH 28 Barrow24-26Widnes
CH 28 Bradford50-0Swinton
CH 28 Dewsbury28-8Sheffield
CH28 Wakefield72-6Doncaster
CH 28 Whitehaven23-20Halifax
CH 28 York16-6Featherstone
Sat 28th Sep
CH 28 Toulouse64-16Batley
SL 28 Warrington23-22St.Helens
NRL 30 Penrith26-6Cronulla
Fri 27th Sep
SL 28 Salford6-14Leigh
NRL 30 Melbourne48-18Sydney
Sun 22nd Sep
CH 27 Batley28-14Swinton
CH 27 Halifax14-10Bradford
CH 27 Swinton20-22Doncaster
L1 24 Hunslet18-14Midlands
L1 24 Keighley26-22Rochdale
WSL2024 15 LeedsW10-12York V
WSL2024 15 St.HelensW18-4WiganW
Sat 21st Sep
SL 27 Hull FC4-24Catalans
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 27 721 336 385 44
Warrington 28 761 341 420 42
Hull KR 27 719 327 392 42
Leigh 28 580 404 176 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 26 1010 262 748 50
Toulouse 25 744 368 376 35
Bradford 26 678 387 291 34
York 27 655 469 186 30
Widnes 26 551 475 76 29
Featherstone 26 622 500 122 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Swinton 27 474 670 -196 18
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
9m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
Trebor1
2358
9m
Hull FC ladies
Hessle Roade
1
20m
The play-offs
dddooommm
6
20m
Kai
Septimius Se
1
22m
Trueman Confirmed
Kettykat
29
27m
Ground Improvements
1315trinity
57
32m
Not going to lie
easyWire
43
42m
Other Championship Clubs
Wollo-Wollo-
336
47m
Transfer Talk / Rumour thread V4
ArthurClues
10022
47m
Doncaster home
Trojan Horse
30
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
24s
Whitehaven Away
Listenup94
4
29s
Shopping list for 2025
Yippee try y
5257
30s
Leigh it is
apollosghost
15
1m
Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE
Jason65
2948
1m
SL Dream Team 2024
RAPIDO
11
1m
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
1m
Film game
karetaker
3964
1m
Other Championship Clubs
Wollo-Wollo-
336
1m
Squads - Devils v Leopards
Vancouver Le
17
1m
Le Cats at home - Los Alomos Custers Last Stand
Mr. Zucchini
115
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Hull FC ladies
Hessle Roade
1
TODAY
Kai
Septimius Se
1
TODAY
Travel to hull krdoes the club run coache
Fantastic Mr
4
TODAY
Wakefield v Dons - Sunday 29 September 2024
Wanderer
4
TODAY
The play-offs
dddooommm
6
TODAY
This years play off series
matt_wire
3
TODAY
Leigh it is
apollosghost
15
TODAY
2024 Southstandercom Prediction Competition Play Off SF
FoxyRhino
1
TODAY
Must do better
Fantastic Mr
19
TODAY
Warrington Wolves Break Saints Hearts With Golden Point Win
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Todays match v Saints
Captain Hook
103
TODAY
We are in good hands
God
6
TODAY
Josh Charnley
Vancouver Le
2
TODAY
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off Progress In Eliminating Salford
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
superleague plus
karetaker
4
TODAY
New Owners
orangeman
1
TODAY
Josh Rourke
PopTart
14
TODAY
2025 Membership prices
WYSIWYG2
2
TODAY
Doncaster home
Trojan Horse
30
TODAY
Mike Cooper
morleys_deck
7
TODAY
Cooper Retiring with Immediate Effect
Moe syslak
11
TODAY
Matt Moylan
leyther
8
TODAY
Swinton A
Highlander
12
TODAY
Play Off Question
DannyT
20
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Warrington Wolves Break Saints..
253
Leigh Leopards Make Play Off P..
362
Catalans Dragons Finish Sevent..
911
Hull KR Secure Second With Vic..
973
Wigan Seal League Leaders Trop..
950
Wakefield Trinity Sweep Aside ..
1304
Catalans Keep Season Alive Wit..
1075
Salford Ensure Play-Offs And S..
1254
Ruthless Wigan Thrash the Rhin..
1427
Huddersfield Giants Hold Off L..
1623
Salford Close In On The Play O..
1410
Leigh Leopards Up To Fourth Af..
1539
Leeds Rhinos Into the Six Afte..
1703
Wigan Warriors Defeat Hull KR ..
1519
Wane Names Provisional Squad f..
1979


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.