Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:42 pm
Son of Les
International Board Member
Joined: Apr 27 2003 Posts: 8633
Cibaman - If you look at the case cited by Ferocious Ardvark, you'll find that they were willing participants too, yet felt the whole weight of the law.
Where is the real difference?
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Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:19 pm
Ajw71
Player Coach
Joined: Feb 23 2006 Posts: 1978
Cibaman wrote:Boxers "fight" as a matter of course but clearly aren't breaking the law. They are willing participants. They're not committing affray (as might be the case in a pub brawl) because a bystander wouldnt be put in fear by their actions.
Context if everything.
But boxers sometimes commit more harm to an opponent than you can consent to in law?!
Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:57 pm
rover49
Player Coach
Joined: Mar 05 2007 Posts: 13190 Location: Hedon (sometimes), sometimes Premier Inn's
McLaren_Field wrote:Surely you have to enforce the criminal law above any sport rules and regulations though ?
Although some industries seem to have standards above the law of the land. On 5 live today several public bodies were asked what would happen to an employee in their particular field under such circumstances where racial incidents had been alleged. It seems that if you are a teacher and are prosecuted in a court of law and a jury of your peers finds you not guilty, you can still be dismissed after all that, as is also the case in the prison service.
It seems the word alone of the 'offended' person is enough in these professions to render the due process of the law irrelevant.
While the offence of racial crimes should not be tolerated in any walk of life, are we now saying that our laws are not enough to prevent your conviction by other means should you prove your innocence in a court of law. It seems a charter for anyone with a grudge to be able to destroy the life of another by accusation, rather than proof.
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Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:59 pm
Glasgow Gal
Club Coach
Joined: Oct 10 2004 Posts: 6392 Location: Glasgow
Wnidyone2012 wrote:I thought maybe wrongly that Big Dunc was done for the head butt and other factors played a part in the prison sentance and not some community punishment.
He'd been done for assault before, more than once. The ref at the game missed it and the SFA used video evidence to ban him later for 10 or 12 matches iirc.
Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:45 am
McLaren_Field
International Chairman
Joined: Feb 26 2002 Posts: 32466 Location: Leeds
rover49 wrote:Although some industries seem to have standards above the law of the land. On 5 live today several public bodies were asked what would happen to an employee in their particular field under such circumstances where racial incidents had been alleged. It seems that if you are a teacher and are prosecuted in a court of law and a jury of your peers finds you not guilty, you can still be dismissed after all that, as is also the case in the prison service.
It seems the word alone of the 'offended' person is enough in these professions to render the due process of the law irrelevant.
While the offence of racial crimes should not be tolerated in any walk of life, are we now saying that our laws are not enough to prevent your conviction by other means should you prove your innocence in a court of law. It seems a charter for anyone with a grudge to be able to destroy the life of another by accusation, rather than proof.
Personally, if I were a teacher or in a profession under similar duress and threat of summary dismissal on the word of another, then I would find myself a union with a record of defending its members properly in an employment tribunal - possibly that is the reason why teaching and other civil service unions are still quite strong ?
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Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:39 am
Ferocious Aardvark
International Chairman
Joined: Feb 17 2002 Posts: 28357 Location: MACS0647-JD
Ajw71 wrote:But boxers sometimes commit more harm to an opponent than you can consent to in law?!
No, because it starts off with the winning card that it is a "lawful activity". Boxing has managed (to date) to retain a legal get out of jail card, on the grounds that boxing per se is a lawful activity. And that legal classification makes all the difference, because even when violence is intentionally inflicted and results in actual bodily harm, wounding or serious bodily harm there is no offence committed if the injury was a foreseeable incident of a lawful activity in which the person injured was participating.
This lawful status was very much a split decision.
There is no intellectual justification making boxing legal though many have tried. It is just it has become widely accepted (though by no means unanimously) as useful to society, and professional boxing rides immune on the back of that (for now). The issue in the case of boxing is simply whether it is a "lawful activity", and in the past, the Courts have on balance held that it is.
It was never a unanimous view. In a venerable 1803 legal tome, referring to violent physical pursuits such as wrestling, prize-fighting and boxing, East said: "the latitude given to manly exercises of the nature above described, when conducted merely as diversions among friends, must not be extended to legalise prize-fighting, public boxing matches and the like, which are exhibited for the sake of lucre, and are calculated to draw together a number of idle disorderly people..."
Many would, two centuries later, concede he had a point.
The court commented in Brown: "That the court is in such cases making a value-judgment, not dependant upon any general theory of consent is exposed by the failure of any attempt to deduce why professional boxing appears to be immune from prosecution. For money, not recreation or personal improvement, each boxer tries to hurt the opponent more than he is hurt himself, and aims to end the contest prematurely by inflicting a brain injury serious enough to make the opponent unconscious, or temporarily by impairing his central nervous system through a blow to the midriff, or cutting his skin to a degree which would ordinarily be well within the scope of section 20. The boxers display skill, strength and courage, but nobody pretends that they do good to themselves or others. The onlookers derive entertainment, but none of the physical and moral benefits which have been seen as the fruits of engagement in manly sports. I intend no disrespect to the valuable judgment of McInearny J. in Pallante v. Stadiums Pty. 1976] V.R. 331[an Australian decision] when I say that the heroic efforts of that learned judge to arrive at an intellectually satisfying account of the apparent immunity of professional boxing from criminal process have convinced me that the task is impossible. It is in my judgment best to regard this as another special situation which for the time being stands outside the ordinary law of violence because society chooses to tolerate it."
Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total
Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:41 pm
Adamjk
Player Coach
Joined: Feb 23 2006 Posts: 3796
Slightly off point, but would a similar case to Brown be decided the same if it came before the Supreme Court today? It's almost a 20 year old ruling now and there's some pretty old fashioned views on show from the majority. It was decided largely on the basis of the protection of morals, at a time when AIDS was probably still a big talking point. It's interesting reading the differences in opinion from the majority and the dissenting judgments - can't help but think that 20 years later, that case would have gone the other way...
Scooter Nik wrote:Cibaman - If you look at the case cited by Ferocious Ardvark, you'll find that they were willing participants too, yet felt the whole weight of the law.
Where is the real difference?
It comes down to whether an observer would feel personally threatened. In a boxing match the participants are ringed off from the speccies as are fans at a rugby match. The difference between those types of fights and say a pub brawl is that the latter is much more likely to spill over and result in injury to innocent bystanders.
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