FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

  

Home The Sin Bin Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:46 am 
International Board Member
International Board Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 17 2002
Posts: 28357
Location: MACS0647-JD
CPS has announced that John Terry is to be prosecuted in relation to the alleged use of racist language to Anton Ferdinand, following "a complaint from a member of the public".

The charge is:
Quote:On 23 October 2011 at Loftus Road Stadium, London W12, you used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress which was racially aggravated in accordance with section 28 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.
Contrary to section 31 (1) (c) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998


As that decision relates to an incident back in October, it may be that the police will yet similarly launch an investigation about the Luis Suárez incident, as I have no doubt some QPR member of the public will similarly make a complaint.

No comment should be made about the Terry case, as it is now before the courts, and I do not want this thread to discuss specific cases. What I would like to discuss is whether and if so to what extent the criminal law should be used to prosecute sportsmen who are alleged to have committed transgressions on the field of play, if a speccy complains.

For example, if players are to risk facing public order offences for their utterances, what about malicious soccer tackles which break a leg? What about deliberate RL head shots which break a jaw?

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress by it, commits an offence. (Public Order Act 1986). This must happen thousands of times every week in sports fields across the country. Sledging in cricket, to cite just one example.

The general rule which has developed is basically that criminal proceedings are reserved for conduct which is sufficiently grave properly to be categorised as criminal. The authorities take into account that sports have their own disciplinary procedures which cater for improper behaviour on pitch. This can be brought to bear; for example, Evra's 8-match ban and £40,000 fine (compare the maximum penalty for JT if convicted - £2500 fine). OTOH Evra does not get a criminal conviction.

Should the police and the courts now have a wider and more frequent role to play in monitoring behaviour in spectator sports? Or is the introduction of an alleged racially aggravated element the dividing line? If yes, is that right? If Evra was for example charged and convicted, then he would have faced double jeopardy as he's already faced a harsh penalty.






Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:44 am 
International Chairman
International Chairman
User avatar

Joined: May 25 2002
Posts: 37704
Location: Zummerzet, where the zoider apples grow
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:CPS has announced that John Terry is to be prosecuted in relation to the alleged use of racist language to Anton Ferdinand, following "a complaint from a member of the public".

The charge is:
As that decision relates to an incident back in October, it may be that the police will yet similarly launch an investigation about the Luis Suárez incident, as I have no doubt some QPR member of the public will similarly make a complaint.

No comment should be made about the Terry case, as it is now before the courts, and I do not want this thread to discuss specific cases. What I would like to discuss is whether and if so to what extent the criminal law should be used to prosecute sportsmen who are alleged to have committed transgressions on the field of play, if a speccy complains.

For example, if players are to risk facing public order offences for their utterances, what about malicious soccer tackles which break a leg? What about deliberate RL head shots which break a jaw?

A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress by it, commits an offence. (Public Order Act 1986). This must happen thousands of times every week in sports fields across the country. Sledging in cricket, to cite just one example.

The general rule which has developed is basically that criminal proceedings are reserved for conduct which is sufficiently grave properly to be categorised as criminal. The authorities take into account that sports have their own disciplinary procedures which cater for improper behaviour on pitch. This can be brought to bear; for example, Evra's 8-match ban and £40,000 fine (compare the maximum penalty for JT if convicted - £2500 fine). OTOH Evra does not get a criminal conviction.

Should the police and the courts now have a wider and more frequent role to play in monitoring behaviour in spectator sports? Or is the introduction of an alleged racially aggravated element the dividing line? If yes, is that right? If Evra was for example charged and convicted, then he would have faced double jeopardy as he's already faced a harsh penalty.


What did Evra do exactly?






The older I get, the better I was

Advice is what we seek when we already know the answer - but wish we didn't

I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full-frontal lobotomy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kirkstaller wrote: "All DNA shows is that we have a common creator."

cod'ead wrote: "I have just snotted weissbier all over my keyboard & screen"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin." - Aneurin Bevan

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:43 am 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
User avatar

Joined: Mar 08 2002
Posts: 26578
Location: On the set of NEDS...
cod'ead wrote:What did Evra do exactly?


Apart from being his usual cheating self? Nothing.






Image


ebay's Rugby League Bargains ¦ Boost Your eBay Sales ¦ Recommended Amazon Stuff ¦ Get a Free Ink Cart!!! ¦ Quins RL T-Shirts, BRAND NEW DESIGNS

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:52 am 
International Chairman
International Chairman
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2002
Posts: 32466
Location: Leeds
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:Should the police and the courts now have a wider and more frequent role to play in monitoring behaviour in spectator sports? Or is the introduction of an alleged racially aggravated element the dividing line? If yes, is that right? If Evra was for example charged and convicted, then he would have faced double jeopardy as he's already faced a harsh penalty.


Surely you have to enforce the criminal law above any sport rules and regulations though ?

The penalty that Luis Suárez has been handed by the FA is their own ruling according to their own regulations, they cannot be used in leui of the criminal law if a criminal offence is committed, they may be taken into consideration by a judge but you're surely not suggesting that a judge can simply dismiss a case on the grounds that he's already suffered enough by not being allowed to play football for eight weeks (no indication of whether he will still be paid?) ?






Someday everything is gonna be different, When I paint my masterpiece
------------------------------------------------------
The Jerry Chicken Blog Page
------------------------------------------------------
BUY MY ART ONLINE AT ARTGALLERY.CO.UK

AT THE RIPPINGHAM GALLERY
....................................................................
ART PROFILE
...................................................................
On Twitter
...................................................................
On Facebook
...................................................................

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:55 am 
International Chairman
International Chairman
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2002
Posts: 32466
Location: Leeds
Big Graeme wrote:Apart from being his usual cheating self? Nothing.



Its the norm in the corrupt game - a game where the majority of players, professional or amateur will deliberately cheat and feign transgressions in order to have their opponents penalised and it doesn't even depend on how much money is riding on those decisions these days - you see the same cheating tactics employed in your local Sunday leagues.

And the commentators call it "The Beautiful Game".

My Arse.






Someday everything is gonna be different, When I paint my masterpiece
------------------------------------------------------
The Jerry Chicken Blog Page
------------------------------------------------------
BUY MY ART ONLINE AT ARTGALLERY.CO.UK

AT THE RIPPINGHAM GALLERY
....................................................................
ART PROFILE
...................................................................
On Twitter
...................................................................
On Facebook
...................................................................

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:00 am 
International Star
Fringe Player
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22 2011
Posts: 833
Location: Waiting for a pint in West London
A very high profile Rangers player once went to prison for serious transgression on the football pitch.






This year I want to see Us going forward in the last 5 minutes even if we are 40 points up.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:27 am 
Player Coach
Club Captain
User avatar

Joined: Aug 14 2009
Posts: 2855
Location: In hiding, just outside Keighley
Wnidyone2012 wrote:A very high profile Rangers player once went to prison for serious transgression on the football pitch.


Duncan Ferguson, for headbutting John McStay? I don't think it was punished on the field either.

From what I remember didn't Big Dunc have previous for assault which was why he ended up in prison for it?






Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend. -Albert Camus

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:48 am 
International Board Member
International Board Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb 17 2002
Posts: 28357
Location: MACS0647-JD
McLaren_Field wrote:Surely you have to enforce the criminal law above any sport rules and regulations though ?
...


But as evidenced by the fact that hundreds of incidents occur on national TV that would get your collar felt if you did them anywhere else, we know there's a clear understanding that despite plain crimes happening before the eyes of dozens of police officers, they are directed to (almost) never intervene, and prosecutions are (almost) never brought.

The occasional prosecution of the occasional footballer who (for example) lays out an opponent with a punch, miles after the ball has gone, are the exception that very clearly highlights the rule.

Yet here there's an exception, and the only added factor that I can see is that the alleged offence is said to have been "racially aggravated". Now, I don't think that a word or a phrase can aggravate itself; so let's say that the complete complained of phrase was "you f?g black c**t". This must mean that the shorter phrase ""you f?g c**t" constitutes the public order offence. And is then aggravated by the addition of "black". (Which obviously does, aggravate it; I'm not disputing that - and the law confirms it) - but it only aggravates it by upping the max. pen. by 1 fine Level. So yes, legally officially worse, but not so much worse.

Whereas a reckless late tackle causing grievous bodily harm (such as a compound double leg fracture), an offence under s.20 Offences Against the Person Act 1861, carries up to 5 years jail. Ditto ABH, which includes "loss or breaking of teeth; temporary loss of consciousness extensive or multiple bruising; displaced / broken nose; minor fractures; cuts requiring medical treatment such as stitches" - we see those sorts of incidents fairly regularly in rugby league. Why would lesser offences lead to criminal prosecution, but manifestly far more serious offences not?






Last edited by Ferocious Aardvark on stardate Jun 26, 3013 11:27 am, edited 48,562,867,458,300,023 times in total

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:11 am 
International Star
Fringe Player
User avatar

Joined: Sep 22 2011
Posts: 833
Location: Waiting for a pint in West London
Stealth Comic wrote:Duncan Ferguson, for headbutting John McStay? I don't think it was punished on the field either.

From what I remember didn't Big Dunc have previous for assault which was why he ended up in prison for it?


I thought maybe wrongly that Big Dunc was done for the head butt and other factors played a part in the prison sentance and not some community punishment.






This year I want to see Us going forward in the last 5 minutes even if we are 40 points up.

Top
   
 
 Post subject: Re: Allegations of criminal offences by sportsmen
PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:26 am 
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Jul 31 2003
Posts: 36786
Location: Leafy Worcester, home of the Black Pear
Ferocious Aardvark wrote:But as evidenced by the fact that hundreds of incidents occur on national TV that would get your collar felt if you did them anywhere else, we know there's a clear understanding that despite plain crimes happening before the eyes of dozens of police officers, they are directed to (almost) never intervene, and prosecutions are (almost) never brought.

The occasional prosecution of the occasional footballer who (for example) lays out an opponent with a punch, miles after the ball has gone, are the exception that very clearly highlights the rule.

Yet here there's an exception, and the only added factor that I can see is that the alleged offence is said to have been "racially aggravated". Now, I don't think that a word or a phrase can aggravate itself; so let's say that the complete complained of phrase was "you f?g black c**t". This must mean that the shorter phrase ""you f?g c**t" constitutes the public order offence. And is then aggravated by the addition of "black". (Which obviously does, aggravate it; I'm not disputing that - and the law confirms it) - but it only aggravates it by upping the max. pen. by 1 fine Level. So yes, legally officially worse, but not so much worse.

Whereas a reckless late tackle causing grievous bodily harm (such as a compound double leg fracture), an offence under s.20 Offences Against the Person Act 1861, carries up to 5 years jail. Ditto ABH, which includes "loss or breaking of teeth; temporary loss of consciousness extensive or multiple bruising; displaced / broken nose; minor fractures; cuts requiring medical treatment such as stitches" - we see those sorts of incidents fairly regularly in rugby league. Why would lesser offences lead to criminal prosecution, but manifestly far more serious offences not?

Could the issue here be proving intent? I guess it might be difficult to prove that a bad tackle resulting in an injury was intentional to a sufficient degree for a criminal prosecution, whereas it's fairly difficult to deny intentionally uttering an offensive word or phrase.






Hold on to me baby, his bony hands will do you no harm
It said in the cards, we lost our souls to the Nameless One

Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next





It is currently Sun Jun 30, 2024 7:10 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


It is currently Sun Jun 30, 2024 7:10 pm
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
32m
Dewsbury away
Bully_Boxer
11
33m
Barrow
TimmySmith
41
42m
Catalan Away
B0NES
5
48m
Shopping list for 2025
Dave K.
2919
52m
TV Games - Not Hull
fcforever111
1990
Recent
Leaving players
Murphy
26
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
37815
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
60001
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
36s
Shopping list for 2025
Dave K.
2919
1m
Wakefield Trinity Register Thirteenth Win Of The Season With Victory Over Barrow
RLFANS News
1
1m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
1828
2m
Leaving players
Murphy
26
3m
International
Smiffy27
32
3m
Academy Origin
Hasbag
2
5m
Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel to Toulouse
MattyB
41
5m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
60001
5m
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
37815
6m
Reserves v London
homme vaste
7
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Wakefield Trinity Register Thirteenth Win Of The Season With Victory Over Barrow
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Academy Origin
Hasbag
2
TODAY
Catalan Away
B0NES
5
TODAY
Englands Youngsters Beat France With Ease Despite Early Scare
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Reserves v London
homme vaste
7
TODAY
Big Win for England Women Over France in Toulouse
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Dewsbury away
Bully_Boxer
11
TODAY
Olly Russell 4 year deal
PopTart
26
TODAY
SuperLeague Plus Fixtures
karetaker
3
TODAY
A good signing for the Robins
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
International
Smiffy27
32
TODAY
Halifax v Whitehaven
faxcar
9
TODAY
Jayden Okunbor
ComeOnYouUll
58
TODAY
Kevin Sinfield event
Wollo-Wollo-
1
TODAY
Red Devils appoint development manager in Ghana
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Leopards sign Newcastle Knights full back
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
2024 State of Origin - Game 2 Contains Spoilers
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
David Armstrong For 2025
J7P1
21
TODAY
New Structure for 2025 Challenge Cup
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Wakefield Trinity Register Thi..
272
Englands Youngsters Beat Franc..
250
Big Win for England Women Over..
232
2024 State of Origin - Game 2 ..
554
New Structure for 2025 Challen..
658
Super League form rewarded as ..
910
Superb Salford Complete Histor..
869
Catalans Dragons Survive Secon..
754
Warrington Wolves Snatch Late ..
822
Spirit of Rob Burrow Inspires ..
1092
Hull KR Drop Goal Secures Win ..
1287
St Helens Break Fifty As They ..
1278
Leigh Leopards Resurgence Clai..
1477
Hull FC Get Second Win By Beat..
1183
Super Salford First Half Slays..
1378
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Wed 17th Jul
SOO
11:05
Queensland-New South Wales
Sat 17th Aug
SL
18:00
Warrington-Leeds
SL
15:30
Wigan-St.Helens
SL
13:00
Hull FC-LondonB
Sun 18th Aug
SL
13:00
Leigh-Salford
SL
15:30
Catalans-Hull KR
SL
18:00
Huddersfield-Castleford
Sun 27th Oct
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sat 2nd Nov
MINT2024
14:30
England M-Samoa M
Sun 30th Jun
CH13 Barrow0-36Wakefield
CH 13 Dewsbury12-38Bradford
CH 13 Halifax38-18Whitehaven
CH 13 Widnes16-24Batley
CH 13 York10-18Sheffield
L1 13 Cornwall10-16Crusaders
L1 13 Newcastle10-44Midlands
L1 13 Oldham30-6Hunslet
L1 13 Workington18-37Keighley
NRL 17 St.George26-6Dolphins
NRL 17 Penrith6-16NQL Cowboys
NRL 17 Sydney40-6Wests
Sat 29th Jun
CH 13 Toulouse20-0Featherstone
CH 13 Doncaster18-8Swinton
NRL 17 NZ Warriors32-16Brisbane
NRL 17 Newcastle34-26Parramatta
NRL 17 Melbourne16-6Canberra
MINT2024 1 France M8-40England M
WINT2024 1 FRANCE W0-42ENGLAND W
Fri 28th Jun
NRL 17 Canterbury15-14Cronulla
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 14 403 164 239 24
St.Helens 15 423 162 261 22
Hull KR 15 383 201 182 22
Warrington 15 358 213 145 20
Salford 15 295 288 7 20
Catalans 15 288 220 68 18
 
Leeds 15 274 270 4 16
Huddersfield 15 298 317 -19 12
Leigh 14 264 226 38 11
Castleford 15 238 429 -191 7
Hull FC 15 198 474 -276 4
LondonB 15 140 598 -458 2
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 13 486 142 344 26
Sheffield 13 354 217 137 20
Bradford 13 341 218 123 18
Toulouse 12 332 174 158 16
Widnes 13 315 245 70 15
Featherstone 13 330 283 47 12
 
Batley 13 205 286 -81 12
Doncaster 13 237 325 -88 11
York 14 285 293 -8 10
Whitehaven 13 266 358 -92 10
Halifax 13 270 377 -107 10
Barrow 12 203 339 -136 10
Swinton 13 260 332 -72 8
Dewsbury 14 168 419 -251 2
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
32m
Dewsbury away
Bully_Boxer
11
33m
Barrow
TimmySmith
41
42m
Catalan Away
B0NES
5
48m
Shopping list for 2025
Dave K.
2919
52m
TV Games - Not Hull
fcforever111
1990
Recent
Leaving players
Murphy
26
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
37815
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
60001
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
36s
Shopping list for 2025
Dave K.
2919
1m
Wakefield Trinity Register Thirteenth Win Of The Season With Victory Over Barrow
RLFANS News
1
1m
ALL NEW 49ERS ERA LEEDS UTD THREAD
tad rhino
1828
2m
Leaving players
Murphy
26
3m
International
Smiffy27
32
3m
Academy Origin
Hasbag
2
5m
Super League form rewarded as Wane names squad to travel to Toulouse
MattyB
41
5m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
60001
5m
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
37815
6m
Reserves v London
homme vaste
7
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Wakefield Trinity Register Thirteenth Win Of The Season With Victory Over Barrow
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Academy Origin
Hasbag
2
TODAY
Catalan Away
B0NES
5
TODAY
Englands Youngsters Beat France With Ease Despite Early Scare
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Reserves v London
homme vaste
7
TODAY
Big Win for England Women Over France in Toulouse
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Dewsbury away
Bully_Boxer
11
TODAY
Olly Russell 4 year deal
PopTart
26
TODAY
SuperLeague Plus Fixtures
karetaker
3
TODAY
A good signing for the Robins
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
International
Smiffy27
32
TODAY
Halifax v Whitehaven
faxcar
9
TODAY
Jayden Okunbor
ComeOnYouUll
58
TODAY
Kevin Sinfield event
Wollo-Wollo-
1
TODAY
Red Devils appoint development manager in Ghana
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Leopards sign Newcastle Knights full back
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
2024 State of Origin - Game 2 Contains Spoilers
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
David Armstrong For 2025
J7P1
21
TODAY
New Structure for 2025 Challenge Cup
RLFANS News
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Wakefield Trinity Register Thi..
272
Englands Youngsters Beat Franc..
250
Big Win for England Women Over..
232
2024 State of Origin - Game 2 ..
554
New Structure for 2025 Challen..
658
Super League form rewarded as ..
910
Superb Salford Complete Histor..
869
Catalans Dragons Survive Secon..
754
Warrington Wolves Snatch Late ..
822
Spirit of Rob Burrow Inspires ..
1092
Hull KR Drop Goal Secures Win ..
1287
St Helens Break Fifty As They ..
1278
Leigh Leopards Resurgence Clai..
1477
Hull FC Get Second Win By Beat..
1183
Super Salford First Half Slays..
1378


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!












.