Joined: Dec 30 2001 Posts: 1622 Location: Manchester
FearTheVee wrote: 1) The word "ultra" is just so cringeworthy from a RL perspective. As Geoggy pointed out "The Scaff" would be much better, if indeed there NEEDS to be some sort of collective noun here. What is wrong with everybody just being called Saints supporters, but with with some organised signing? You don't need pin badges and a logo to get together and make some noise.
I wasn't going to bother commenting, but this pretty much sums up my entire feelings on the matter. Whilst I think that Wigan fans have done a great job and it has helped them create a good atmosphere (besides the drumming, which quite frankly ruins the effect) I find the choice of name rather odd. The term 'Ultra' is intrinsically linked to hooliganism and extremism no matter what anyone says. A quick look in the dictionary will tell you that much. Whilst I obviously don't think that Wigan's version has any of this element, I certainly wouldn't want a Saints group (or to be associated with) a group with that tag.
'The Scaff' has a meaning to a lot of supporters because of its historical context however, it would be nice to bring a bit of Knowsley Road to the new place.
Joined: May 13 2005 Posts: 2931 Location: In Dire Straits
Dave26 wrote::CHILL:
I can only presume you are referring to the Dale Cavese when you say "its just mindless, childish, charmless, repetitive, unimaginative, annoying, distracting, self indulgent, tiresome, boring, tuneless chanting" (that particular version is completely out of time and tune but it looks like the couple of thousand young and old fans that were joining in were having fun, that's the main thing!), you seem very angry about one song?! For what it's worth there is much more to the idea of an "ultras" group than this one song. What about the flags (large and small), the singing, the excuse to meet up and talk about rugby and (the biggest positive so far for me) meeting fans from my club that otherwise I wouldn't have met. I can now go to games home and away and speak to people that I know through this "movement". I can only think that you're letting your "hatred" of Wigan get in the way here, how is one song (or chant as you call it) self indulgent or charmless? Are all the songs that Saints fans sing full of charm? Should we be wary that opposition fans find it annoying or distracting?
Your posts seem to focus more on slagging wigan and our fans off than talking positively about your own club in a thread aimed at promoting a more positive atmosphere at YOUR new ground! Imagine a large area of one of the new terraced stands in the new ground full of Saints fans (young and old) singing, with flags adding colour. Presuming it's carried out in a sensible manner and those taking part know what the boundaries are then what are the negatives?
You refer to it "ending up remotely like the goon show", what is it that we do that really grinds your gears so much? That we support our team vocally, that we try to put on a bit of a show, that it seems 99% of our fans like it and are joining in, that the Wigan club/RFL/Sky/BBC seem to approve?
Lastly, if the game was irrelevant we wouldn't be there, you seem to be spouting things that you have no proof or backing of, trying to find negatives in order to make the idea itself negative. When in fact it is a positive move towards backing your team, which I'm sure the players will notice and appreciate. If this was Wakefield fans doing the same would you still harbour the same negativity (that is a genuine question)?
With regards to the Saint Helens Ultras, as has been said, the first step is to find a name. Possibly look into the past of Saint Helens (settlers/founders) or the history of the club (previous names/grounds) or as has been said something Knowsley Road oriented (The Spirit Of Knowsley Road?). Once you have a name you have something that people can connect with, although to me the word ultra doesn't conjure up thoughts of violence, I can understand that for some it does.
Oh and good luck, for those who are against the idea, why not explain fully why you aren't, maybe you can help steer those in favour away from certain ideas that you dislike, rather than just saying "if what we intend to do ends up remotely like the goon show; I'm dead against it and I know several others with the same view."
Not sure where you are coming from on this. You seem to be obsessed with my dislike of the chanting without words. I've checked your link and yes, it seems to be that particular wordless chant that annoys me. perhaps it is the repetitive mindless nature of it and the fact it seems to go on and on and on ad nauseum. Thanks to your link I checked out the history of it dating back a long way to a team in Italy but has since been copied across europe. TBH much as I dislike wigan - which is a whole different subject, I wouldn't/don't like it whoever was "singing" this whether it be wigan, celtic, swansea, accrington stanley (apparently) boca juniors (who seem to have a very different version) plus many more or even cavese fans. You don't seem to understand that I just don't like it and that there are other who also don't like it. If leeds or warrington did the chant, I wouldn't like it. The reason I am so excercised by it is I'm dreading we might take it up as well. I am entitled to an opinion.
Whilst there is a movement under way to organise some sort of singing group for saints there is no support I can see for it to be like the Come On Cavese chant that is your trademark "tune".
I also readily admit that the atmosphere at the stobart has at times been like a morgue this year and that a more Saints vocal support - organised or not - is badly needed, I also think a lot of it is because its not really a home stadium for us and when we get into the new stadium there will be a much more vibrant atmosphere (hope). If the scaff idea takes off, and its singing or at least something with words, then I'll fully back anyone who wants to get involved or just join in.
I can only presume you are referring to the Dale Cavese when you say "its just mindless, childish, charmless, repetitive, unimaginative, annoying, distracting, self indulgent, tiresome, boring, tuneless chanting" (that particular version is completely out of time and tune but it looks like the couple of thousand young and old fans that were joining in were having fun, that's the main thing!), you seem very angry about one song?! For what it's worth there is much more to the idea of an "ultras" group than this one song. What about the flags (large and small), the singing, the excuse to meet up and talk about rugby and (the biggest positive so far for me) meeting fans from my club that otherwise I wouldn't have met. I can now go to games home and away and speak to people that I know through this "movement". I can only think that you're letting your "hatred" of Wigan get in the way here, how is one song (or chant as you call it) self indulgent or charmless? Are all the songs that Saints fans sing full of charm? Should we be wary that opposition fans find it annoying or distracting?
Your posts seem to focus more on slagging wigan and our fans off than talking positively about your own club in a thread aimed at promoting a more positive atmosphere at YOUR new ground! Imagine a large area of one of the new terraced stands in the new ground full of Saints fans (young and old) singing, with flags adding colour. Presuming it's carried out in a sensible manner and those taking part know what the boundaries are then what are the negatives?
You refer to it "ending up remotely like the goon show", what is it that we do that really grinds your gears so much? That we support our team vocally, that we try to put on a bit of a show, that it seems 99% of our fans like it and are joining in, that the Wigan club/RFL/Sky/BBC seem to approve?
Lastly, if the game was irrelevant we wouldn't be there, you seem to be spouting things that you have no proof or backing of, trying to find negatives in order to make the idea itself negative. When in fact it is a positive move towards backing your team, which I'm sure the players will notice and appreciate. If this was Wakefield fans doing the same would you still harbour the same negativity (that is a genuine question)?
With regards to the Saint Helens Ultras, as has been said, the first step is to find a name. Possibly look into the past of Saint Helens (settlers/founders) or the history of the club (previous names/grounds) or as has been said something Knowsley Road oriented (The Spirit Of Knowsley Road?). Once you have a name you have something that people can connect with, although to me the word ultra doesn't conjure up thoughts of violence, I can understand that for some it does.
Oh and good luck, for those who are against the idea, why not explain fully why you aren't, maybe you can help steer those in favour away from certain ideas that you dislike, rather than just saying "if what we intend to do ends up remotely like the goon show; I'm dead against it and I know several others with the same view."
Not sure where you are coming from on this. You seem to be obsessed with my dislike of the chanting without words. I've checked your link and yes, it seems to be that particular wordless chant that annoys me. perhaps it is the repetitive mindless nature of it and the fact it seems to go on and on and on ad nauseum. Thanks to your link I checked out the history of it dating back a long way to a team in Italy but has since been copied across europe. TBH much as I dislike wigan - which is a whole different subject, I wouldn't/don't like it whoever was "singing" this whether it be wigan, celtic, swansea, accrington stanley (apparently) boca juniors (who seem to have a very different version) plus many more or even cavese fans. You don't seem to understand that I just don't like it and that there are other who also don't like it. If leeds or warrington did the chant, I wouldn't like it. The reason I am so excercised by it is I'm dreading we might take it up as well. I am entitled to an opinion.
Whilst there is a movement under way to organise some sort of singing group for saints there is no support I can see for it to be like the Come On Cavese chant that is your trademark "tune".
I also readily admit that the atmosphere at the stobart has at times been like a morgue this year and that a more Saints vocal support - organised or not - is badly needed, I also think a lot of it is because its not really a home stadium for us and when we get into the new stadium there will be a much more vibrant atmosphere (hope). If the scaff idea takes off, and its singing or at least something with words, then I'll fully back anyone who wants to get involved or just join in.
saint at wire wrote:Not sure where you are coming from on this. You seem to be obsessed with my dislike of the chanting without words. I've checked your link and yes, it seems to be that particular wordless chant that annoys me. perhaps it is the repetitive mindless nature of it and the fact it seems to go on and on and on ad nauseum. Thanks to your link I checked out the history of it dating back a long way to a team in Italy but has since been copied across europe. TBH much as I dislike wigan - which is a whole different subject, I wouldn't/don't like it whoever was "singing" this whether it be wigan, celtic, swansea, accrington stanley (apparently) boca juniors (who seem to have a very different version) plus many more or even cavese fans. You don't seem to understand that I just don't like it and that there are other who also don't like it. If leeds or warrington did the chant, I wouldn't like it. The reason I am so excercised by it is I'm dreading we might take it up as well. I am entitled to an opinion.
Whilst there is a movement under way to organise some sort of singing group for saints there is no support I can see for it to be like the Come On Cavese chant that is your trademark "tune".
I also readily admit that the atmosphere at the stobart has at times been like a morgue this year and that a more Saints vocal support - organised or not - is badly needed, I also think a lot of it is because its not really a home stadium for us and when we get into the new stadium there will be a much more vibrant atmosphere (hope). If the scaff idea takes off, and its singing or at least something with words, then I'll fully back anyone who wants to get involved or just join in.
Fair enough, I can see why opposition fans would find it annoying. The first time it really got going was at the Stobart, since then it seems to have spread to the point where at Warrington after the cup semi final you had a couple of thousand (and believe me they were not all under 40, as you'll see if you re-watch this video) singing it half an hour after the game finished. I'll admit the first time it was sung it was younger people singing it, and that those videos taken from the back of the stands only show younger folk, but this is to be expected as older folk don't tend to stand towards the back. As for it being our trademark "tune", it's been sung at a few games now, but mainly because it seems to have caught on with everyone and so everyone joins in. Admittedly it's not rugby related but it does seem to encourage a lot of people to join in and get involved, which I would say is important when starting a group like this. I wouldn't say we have a trademark song though, sometimes it's the simpler songs that catch on as others can copy them more easily, admittedly this means that some better/more lyrically based songs don't catch on.
One thing I would like to point out is that the flag group/Brigantes is not made up of drunken teenagers! I'm not saying this is your view, but it is a misconception I have noticed amongst some people. The age range is probably from about 17 to Rogues I'd say the average age at the meetings is around 30 (taking into account there's a couple of us around 20).
I think a poor atmosphere at the Stobart was to be expected, as you say it's not YOUR ground, but I'm sure that will be rectified next year. I'd like to see a singing section take off at Saints, it could improve the already electric atmosphere on derby day! Good luck to the guys trying to set it up!
saint at wire wrote:Not sure where you are coming from on this. You seem to be obsessed with my dislike of the chanting without words. I've checked your link and yes, it seems to be that particular wordless chant that annoys me. perhaps it is the repetitive mindless nature of it and the fact it seems to go on and on and on ad nauseum. Thanks to your link I checked out the history of it dating back a long way to a team in Italy but has since been copied across europe. TBH much as I dislike wigan - which is a whole different subject, I wouldn't/don't like it whoever was "singing" this whether it be wigan, celtic, swansea, accrington stanley (apparently) boca juniors (who seem to have a very different version) plus many more or even cavese fans. You don't seem to understand that I just don't like it and that there are other who also don't like it. If leeds or warrington did the chant, I wouldn't like it. The reason I am so excercised by it is I'm dreading we might take it up as well. I am entitled to an opinion.
Whilst there is a movement under way to organise some sort of singing group for saints there is no support I can see for it to be like the Come On Cavese chant that is your trademark "tune".
I also readily admit that the atmosphere at the stobart has at times been like a morgue this year and that a more Saints vocal support - organised or not - is badly needed, I also think a lot of it is because its not really a home stadium for us and when we get into the new stadium there will be a much more vibrant atmosphere (hope). If the scaff idea takes off, and its singing or at least something with words, then I'll fully back anyone who wants to get involved or just join in.
Fair enough, I can see why opposition fans would find it annoying. The first time it really got going was at the Stobart, since then it seems to have spread to the point where at Warrington after the cup semi final you had a couple of thousand (and believe me they were not all under 40, as you'll see if you re-watch this video) singing it half an hour after the game finished. I'll admit the first time it was sung it was younger people singing it, and that those videos taken from the back of the stands only show younger folk, but this is to be expected as older folk don't tend to stand towards the back. As for it being our trademark "tune", it's been sung at a few games now, but mainly because it seems to have caught on with everyone and so everyone joins in. Admittedly it's not rugby related but it does seem to encourage a lot of people to join in and get involved, which I would say is important when starting a group like this. I wouldn't say we have a trademark song though, sometimes it's the simpler songs that catch on as others can copy them more easily, admittedly this means that some better/more lyrically based songs don't catch on.
One thing I would like to point out is that the flag group/Brigantes is not made up of drunken teenagers! I'm not saying this is your view, but it is a misconception I have noticed amongst some people. The age range is probably from about 17 to Rogues I'd say the average age at the meetings is around 30 (taking into account there's a couple of us around 20).
I think a poor atmosphere at the Stobart was to be expected, as you say it's not YOUR ground, but I'm sure that will be rectified next year. I'd like to see a singing section take off at Saints, it could improve the already electric atmosphere on derby day! Good luck to the guys trying to set it up!
You would think Wiganers have just invented chanting and flags the way they go on.
There is a need from the outset to designat a focal point for a Scaff at the new ground to start to build an atmosphere.
Wigan probably needed the shot in the arm that their ultras have given them because of a number of factors including bigger ground more empty seats, they reluctantly moved and still to a certain extent live there, No terracing , Level of success compared to pre Dw days etc.
There are many Saints fans who all ready contribute to our atmosp here and colour as anyone who was at the semi could see.
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