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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:32 pm 
Player Coach
International Star

Joined: Oct 05 2009
Posts: 6858
Up the Dons wrote:Another thing...my Dad got me into RL.....if I had kids i wouldn't get them into it under this system...that's just me...but i feel its quite a statement


A better statement would be to support doncaster,cancel sky and refuse to support any event that sl are associated with.






22/03/2013
Get LEIGH outta wigan

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:35 pm 
Player Coach
International Star
User avatar

Joined: Feb 26 2006
Posts: 5468
j.c wrote:A better statement would be to support doncaster,cancel sky and refuse to support any event that sl are associated with.


agree with support Donny.....the tough one is Sky as i love my darts too much......the latter point i agree i could do....just i dont want to...i want to love super league....i want to see if Warrington can finally do it this year etc etc.....






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John Part BDO world champ 1994...PDC world champ! 2003 2008

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:40 pm 
Player Coach
Fringe Player

Joined: Sep 25 2007
Posts: 897
Up the Dons wrote:...i want to love super league....i want to see if Warrington can finally do it this year etc etc.....


Mate, you love rugby league. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Keep loving it.

The game rarely lets us down, only some (a relative few) of the people involved in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:41 pm 
In The Arms of 13 Angels
In The Arms of 13 Angels
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Joined: Mar 08 2002
Posts: 26578
Location: On the set of NEDS...
Starbug wrote:Don't suggest Leigh , that is a myth , we broke even


The same way we break even...

Widnes, Workington, Doncaster will do for a start.






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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:45 pm 
Player Coach
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Joined: Feb 26 2006
Posts: 5468
miscreant wrote:Mate, you love rugby league. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Keep loving it.

The game rarely lets us down, only some (a relative few) of the people involved in it.


your right..i shall,,,but i blame you if the Dons lose their next game ;-)






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John Part BDO world champ 1994...PDC world champ! 2003 2008

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:47 pm 
Player Coach
Fringe Player

Joined: Sep 25 2007
Posts: 897
They'll avenge the home defeat by the Cougars to make it 8 wins out of 9. Have no fear.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:34 pm 
International Chairman
Player Coach
User avatar

Joined: Dec 22 2001
Posts: 12738
Location: The heart of gods Country, Haydock
The current licensing system that the RFL is merely a modified system from that which has run for most of the RFL's history.

In order to become a professional RL club you had to be accepted in by your fellow peers. To do this you had to satisfy them that your proposed club would offer a positive contribution to the code of RL.
There was no pyramid in place guaranteeing promotion and relegation. Instead there was just one big league of affiliated teams.

Some clubs decided that they were better served elsewhere eg Stockport County who withdrew from the Northern Union as it was then called, and became instead a professional soccer club.

Other clubs however were formed at later dates and have made lasting contributions to the development of the sport. I'm thinking here of the Cumbrian clubs along with Castleford and Featherstone. These sides are all expansion franchises. Though i doubt their fans would describe themselves as that.

There were also some failures for example St.Helens recs , Runcorn, Lancaster, Blackpool borough

So historically what we see is that licensing has an historical precedent of producing a mixed bag of success and failure.

One of the negatives of the original licensing system was that once a club was in the RFL, it could sit back and pretty much get away with doing very little, as there were no proper checks and balances in place to get rid of failing clubs. Runcorn being a classic example of a side that did nothing other than exist.
Hence most RL clubs spent most of their time being quite content to potter along without doing anything to develop themselves or the game, preferring instead to parasite off the small number of big and successful clubs.
The end result of this was that the game stagnated and crowds started to fall.


The RFL's solution to this was to ape Soccer and bring in promotion and relegation. One of the aims being no doubt to shake things up in an attempt to create a more entrepreneurial spirit, with clubs striving to aim for the top division.
What happened however was that an arms race developed between a small elite of clubs who would literally buy themselves out of any league difficulty. This resulted in increased financial insecurity throughout the league, and increasingly a concentration of the best talent amongst just a few clubs.
Arguably as a result of this, the league became uncompetitive, and standards dropped . Its no coincidence in my book that the last time we defeated the Aussies was just prior to the introduction of promotion and relegation.

Relegation became almost a nail in the coffin for successful but not prosperous clubs, one bad year on the pitch sent great clubs like Swinton, Leigh and Huddersfield out of the top division and into the wilderness.

At the same time many of the smaller clubs, rather than attempt to grow themselves, merely became content with their lot and just did what they always did, and merely exist off the back of their richer peers.
As a result what developed was a small group of yo yo clubs who would each year swap places in the top division, while the majority of the sides in the lower league just got on with playing the season out.
This yo yo syndrome sapped at the finances and confidence of these ambitious clubs and arguably also damaged their ability to draw crowds as fans became sick of the constant cycle of boom and bust.

Promotion and relegation also effectively killed off the games ability to expand, because there was no ability for a new club to make any long term financial projections and plan ahead. Without security, clubs like Fulham had brief moments in the sun before getting relegated and then imploding.

As discussed earlier, the big clubs entered into a furious "arms race" in order to avoid the dreaded chop into the lower divisions. The consequences of this were that these big clubs became financially insolvent themselves as they outbid each other for the signatures of the best players. This then diverted attention away from developing young talent. Clubs knew that merely by buying up a smaller clubs talent they could weaken them and ensure they were the ones relegated. The ultimate example of this arms race, was Wigan in the late 1980's and early 1990's who created a super team by buying up most of the best British RL players. Widnes were the only team to try to compete with them. The end result for both teams was financial meltdown. Wigan got bailed out by Dave Whelan but were forced to sell their home Central park as part of the takeover. Widnes had to sell all their star players and ended up being relegated, and as a consequence have spent the period since the mid 1990's out of the limelight.

The recent reintroduction of licensing rather than the destructive P&R is in my book therefore a move to greater stability within the game both from a financial and playing point of view. It isnt a perfect solution as seen both today and in the past, However IMO it is a lesser evil than Promotion and Relegation.
The move to assessing clubs under set measurable criteria, is also one whose aim is to prevent stagnation as happened under the original licensing system, as it gives the game a big stick to threaten clubs that are engaged in a parasitic rather than productive existence.
Similarly by offering the prize of promotion to SL for ambitious and well run championship clubs, the RFL is trying to encourage the entrepreneurial spirit amongst the smaller clubs, without exposing them to the lottery of P&R.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:40 pm 
International Chairman
Club Coach
User avatar

Joined: Feb 16 2002
Posts: 16250
Location: Warrington
Asgardian13 wrote:'Heartland' club Salford have gates comparable with Crusaders, so poor gates are not just a result of expansion. End licensing and the rush to safe bets like signing as many foreign players as you can get away with and the concommittant withdrawal of money from development in youth and new supporter facilities will drown the sport in five years.


I've got an idea......just lower the overseas quota, then youth development becomes necessary and we can do away with stupid licensing.....simples






2015 - major missed opportunity, 2016 - stronger teams = harder task (no problem there then), 2017 - OMG What now!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:56 pm 
International Chairman
International Chairman
User avatar

Joined: Mar 09 2004
Posts: 33944
Location: watching out for low flying geese
Big Graeme wrote:The same way we break even...

Widnes, Workington, Doncaster will do for a start.


No , we broke even without tipping in hundreds of thousands , in fact a slight profit was posted

I don't remember Doncaster and Workington getting promoted to SL , and Widnes didn't come straight back down






kcab sfrawdder



Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity

Just to avoid confusion Starbug is the username of Steven Pike




SOMEBODY SAID that it couldn’t be done
But he with a chuckle replied
That “maybe it couldn’t,” but he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so till he’d tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn’t be done, and he did it!

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 Post subject: Re: Stop this self destruction before its too late
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:57 am 
International Star
First Team Player

Joined: Aug 05 2010
Posts: 1040
The Chair Maker wrote:The current licensing system that the RFL is merely a modified system from that which has run for most of the RFL's history.

In order to become a professional RL club you had to be accepted in by your fellow peers. To do this you had to satisfy them that your proposed club would offer a positive contribution to the code of RL.
There was no pyramid in place guaranteeing promotion and relegation. Instead there was just one big league of affiliated teams.

Some clubs decided that they were better served elsewhere eg Stockport County who withdrew from the Northern Union as it was then called, and became instead a professional soccer club.

Other clubs however were formed at later dates and have made lasting contributions to the development of the sport. I'm thinking here of the Cumbrian clubs along with Castleford and Featherstone. These sides are all expansion franchises. Though i doubt their fans would describe themselves as that.

There were also some failures for example St.Helens recs , Runcorn, Lancaster, Blackpool borough

So historically what we see is that licensing has an historical precedent of producing a mixed bag of success and failure.

One of the negatives of the original licensing system was that once a club was in the RFL, it could sit back and pretty much get away with doing very little, as there were no proper checks and balances in place to get rid of failing clubs. Runcorn being a classic example of a side that did nothing other than exist.
Hence most RL clubs spent most of their time being quite content to potter along without doing anything to develop themselves or the game, preferring instead to parasite off the small number of big and successful clubs.
The end result of this was that the game stagnated and crowds started to fall.


The RFL's solution to this was to ape Soccer and bring in promotion and relegation. One of the aims being no doubt to shake things up in an attempt to create a more entrepreneurial spirit, with clubs striving to aim for the top division.
What happened however was that an arms race developed between a small elite of clubs who would literally buy themselves out of any league difficulty. This resulted in increased financial insecurity throughout the league, and increasingly a concentration of the best talent amongst just a few clubs.
Arguably as a result of this, the league became uncompetitive, and standards dropped . Its no coincidence in my book that the last time we defeated the Aussies was just prior to the introduction of promotion and relegation.

Relegation became almost a nail in the coffin for successful but not prosperous clubs, one bad year on the pitch sent great clubs like Swinton, Leigh and Huddersfield out of the top division and into the wilderness.

At the same time many of the smaller clubs, rather than attempt to grow themselves, merely became content with their lot and just did what they always did, and merely exist off the back of their richer peers.
As a result what developed was a small group of yo yo clubs who would each year swap places in the top division, while the majority of the sides in the lower league just got on with playing the season out.
This yo yo syndrome sapped at the finances and confidence of these ambitious clubs and arguably also damaged their ability to draw crowds as fans became sick of the constant cycle of boom and bust.

Promotion and relegation also effectively killed off the games ability to expand, because there was no ability for a new club to make any long term financial projections and plan ahead. Without security, clubs like Fulham had brief moments in the sun before getting relegated and then imploding.

As discussed earlier, the big clubs entered into a furious "arms race" in order to avoid the dreaded chop into the lower divisions. The consequences of this were that these big clubs became financially insolvent themselves as they outbid each other for the signatures of the best players. This then diverted attention away from developing young talent. Clubs knew that merely by buying up a smaller clubs talent they could weaken them and ensure they were the ones relegated. The ultimate example of this arms race, was Wigan in the late 1980's and early 1990's who created a super team by buying up most of the best British RL players. Widnes were the only team to try to compete with them. The end result for both teams was financial meltdown. Wigan got bailed out by Dave Whelan but were forced to sell their home Central park as part of the takeover. Widnes had to sell all their star players and ended up being relegated, and as a consequence have spent the period since the mid 1990's out of the limelight.

The recent reintroduction of licensing rather than the destructive P&R is in my book therefore a move to greater stability within the game both from a financial and playing point of view. It isnt a perfect solution as seen both today and in the past, However IMO it is a lesser evil than Promotion and Relegation.
The move to assessing clubs under set measurable criteria, is also one whose aim is to prevent stagnation as happened under the original licensing system, as it gives the game a big stick to threaten clubs that are engaged in a parasitic rather than productive existence.
Similarly by offering the prize of promotion to SL for ambitious and well run championship clubs, the RFL is trying to encourage the entrepreneurial spirit amongst the smaller clubs, without exposing them to the lottery of P&R.


Awesome post mate!

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