Joined: Oct 30 2005 Posts: 6268 Location: Warrington UK
I really thought Vastmans post there was a good one and an interesting topic point. Not sure I agree with it all but we have seen how quickly the RFL run from a legal battle, they cant afford it.
FWIW I think the RFL would win any said battle, its a members only club..but they wont stand and fight
Post subject: Re: Which clubs should be added to Super League in 2012 + 2015?
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:08 am
belgianxiii
Player Coach
Joined: Mar 03 2006 Posts: 3766
Alice's Phallus wrote:Anglo-Celtic
Widnes Sheffield OR Doncaster Gateshead-Newcastle London II Edinburgh Glasgow Dublin Belfast
Continental European
Toulouse Paris Lyon-Rhone Avignon OR Vaucluse (Avignon and Carpentras) Marseille Barcelona
I am not convinced that the best NL1 team will be passed by in favour of Widnes/TO on grounds of location.
I think in the UK the next additions will be on merit, with possibly extra consideration to Sheffield-Doncaster and Gateshead. We will have to see how those teams get along, as Sheffield have started well and Gateshead have an expected boost of Pia players after the LER final. Doncaster has a good stadium but has also gone under, not very stable unfortunately.
I still reckon Leigh, Widnes and Fax are favorites, with the Gateshead and Sheffield in the mix.
From Europe there can only be TO, maybe, depending on their results. Much as I would like to see a third Catalan feeder club in the SL I doubt that Barcelona will get a team into the LER in 3 years and in the Championship 3 years after that, let alone SL. Picking from strength the next logical step for a SL franchise in France would be the Aude region, but I doubt the money would be there. Paris and Marseille need to get to the LER first, so as likely as Barca.
I think that in the next 6 years the comp may expand to 16, but definately not 18. Financial backing will be a big deal here, especially given the current climate. I expect that there may be one addition in 2012 making it a 15 team comp, TO will only get it if they make a Championship final in the next two years - we will have to see.
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Joined: Aug 13 2003 Posts: 20966 Location: The Shaky Isles
One (or two) from Widnes, Leigh or Halifax 2012
I don't think a second French team is needed yet, or another London one for that matter either.
Depending on who performs the better in the Co-op league over the seasons 09, 10 and 11, I would bring in the club(s) with the best business plan.
Widnes should be a shoo in (IMO) if they can be competative on the field. The financial backers look to be there for the long run, their fan base is there, the stadium is cracking and their youth set up one of the best.
If there is a second team to come in, I would think Leigh would be second favourites.
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Joined: Jan 28 2006 Posts: 18736 Location: Baix Empordà, Catalunya
gutterfax wrote:Widnes should be a shoo in (IMO) if they can be competative on the field. The financial backers look to be there for the long run, their fan base is there, the stadium is cracking and their youth set up one of the best. If there is a second team to come in, I would think Leigh would be second favourites.
They've got to make it to a Grand Final first.
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Post subject: Re: Which clubs should be added to Super League in 2012 + 20
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:53 am
Wellsy13
Club Owner
Joined: Feb 03 2004 Posts: 10000 Location: Hull
vastman wrote:OK then love, just to show how utterly clueless you are.
Do you actually understand the franchise and how it work, because I don't think you have the first idea.
So a word to the wise, it's not the Lego league, you can't just add and remove bit's just to satisfy the ever changing whims of people like yourself.
SL is made up of 14 Ltd companies with Boards, Shareholders and Employees - all of which are protected by company and employment law - this overides anything the RFL may wish. For any of these companies to have their trading ability compromised will require a lot more than an RFL franchise. Basically for any of the 14 clubs to stand down would require them to have failed to maintain their SL standard to a very large degree. Theoretically if Cas don't get a new ground they could argue that as it was OK last time then their score is the same and seeing as Widnes would not be able to match them on other criteria Cas if they took it to court would win. For any club to step down IMHO it would have to be a near voluntary act and as such unlikey.
Come 2012 and 2015 you cannot just get rid of a club to make way for another. From this point on the franchise is like an MOT test. So long as the existing 14 SL teams meet the criteria for SL and have run their affairs well and been competitive for most of the next three years they are in. They cannot be removed, it's enshrined into the franchise - why do you think they were all so desperate to get it.
Judging on the playing side this season then all clubs except Celtic look assured of a franchise. Even they are unlikely to finish bottom two for all three seasons, for me it's bottom two you need to avoid.
The only clubs in real danger are Wakey, Cas, Saints, Salford, Celtic and possibly Bradford on Stadium issues. The only other club at risk are London and maybe Celtic who's crowds for my money simply can't support a SL club long term.
So assuming all clubs sort their Stadia out then I can't see any losing a frachise.
This means SL needs to expand to 16 teams by 2012 and 18 by 2015 to fit in new teams for your plans to stand a chance.
That will require a 4 million pound a season increase in TV revenue (not including inflation). If you think that will happen you are truly mentally unbalanced.
If you want me to predict SL 2015 I reckon it may be someting like this. Widnes will replace someone, probably either Celtic or London who may fail economically or any of a number of clubs that may fail stadium wise.
Toulouse will not last in NL1 and will never make SL IMHO because there isn't enough talent in France to sustain them.
Utterly stupid names such as Glasgow, Paris and Dublin(especially hillarious) will never ever ever play in SL. If you knew anything about the UK you would know that, football is king in these areas and always will be - their simply isn't the interest and there never will be.
I also think the SKY money will reduce as TV gets less and less profitable in which case heartland teams will be far better placed to survive.
So for me possesion is 9/10th of the law and the existing 14 clubs will not be easily budged.
Welcome to the real world.
Vastman, that is all complete and utter rubbish.
It's not a case of removing a SL club. They all have 3 year licenses, which means they all need to reapply in 3 years. If they don't get one, they didn't do enough. I'm pretty sure the RFL have it covered in law, otherwise they wouldn't have set up such a system would they? Why would they set up a system that they cannot remove teams from?
If there is a significantly better license application from outside of the SL compared to the worst SL application (even if it does meet all the criteria) then they will no doubt swap them, and there is nothing the clubs will be able to do in the courts because they signed up to the system. It's like suing because you get relegated. Doesn't work.
Joined: Oct 20 2004 Posts: 5766 Location: Coventry
2012 Widnes
Toulouse
2015 Sheffield
Gateshead
Any suggestion of Doncaster is stupid talk, they go bust anytime they get near, and that's before we get to the Paris/Barcelona rubbish.
From 2012 the Championship should be strictly for British (and Irish if possible) clubs, so that the Elite can be built up as another 2nd tier league alongside the Championship (have a comp for the best teams of both) and to stop unnecessary expenses. If Toulouse aren't ready for SL in 2012 send them back to France to improve the league there and let them apply from there.
Post subject: Re: Which clubs should be added to Super League in 2012 + 20
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:29 pm
vastman
International Chairman
Joined: Oct 13 2004 Posts: 36146 Location: Poodle Power!
Wellsy13 wrote:Vastman, that is all complete and utter rubbish.
It's not a case of removing a SL club. They all have 3 year licenses, which means they all need to reapply in 3 years. If they don't get one, they didn't do enough. I'm pretty sure the RFL have it covered in law, otherwise they wouldn't have set up such a system would they? Why would they set up a system that they cannot remove teams from?
If there is a significantly better license application from outside of the SL compared to the worst SL application (even if it does meet all the criteria) then they will no doubt swap them, and there is nothing the clubs will be able to do in the courts because they signed up to the system. It's like suing because you get relegated. Doesn't work.
No your wrong - look at how the franchise is scored, there simply are not enough points available to an NL1 club to dislodge a SL club except on Stadium criteria.
Here is the list in full, I have bolded the the points that simply will not be available to non SL clubs and thus render them incapable of dislodging an existing club - go on tell me where I'm wrong
1 A stadium capacity of at least 12,000.
2 An average crowd of 10,000 or over.
3 An average crowd that fills more than 40% of a club’s stadium capacity.
4 A turnover of at least £4m per annum.
5 Solvency, in accordance with accounting definitions of solvency, although this criterion can be satisfied if there is a written owner’s guarantee of the club’s debts.
6 A reasonable playing strength, which is likely to be satisfied if the club has finished the season in the top eight in each of the last three years.
7 A reasonable contribution to junior development, judged by the number of scholarships and the performances of the club’s Under 21s and Under 18s Academy teams in the last three years.
8 The stadium meeting the standard of a premier sporting competition, which is judged on the quality and quantity of its facilities in accordance with detailed criteria.
9 Geographical position. Clubs that are more than 20 miles away from any other likely Super League club will be allocated one point on this criterion.
10 Compliance with salary-cap regulations. Specifically, clubs must not have incurred any breach of the salary cap in the last three years.
If any of the existing SL clubs maintain what they already did to get a 2009 liscense then there is now ay a club from outside can IMO beat the existing 14 teams.
Any team brought into SL at the expense of one of the existing clubs would be doing so against the RFL own criteria and would very much be open to legal action.
Post subject: Re: Which clubs should be added to Super League in 2012 + 20
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:52 pm
littlerich
International Chairman
Joined: Aug 18 2002 Posts: 18789 Location: 'Fax fan in Stockport: The jewel in the ring of Manchester
vastman wrote:Any team brought into SL at the expense of one of the existing clubs would be doing so against the RFL own criteria and would very much be open to legal action.
It is you who is talking utter rubbish.
Whilst your post makes sense, this last part is questionable. Legal action? The RFL can change the criteria if needed. They can, at will, bring any special dispensation to non-Super League clubs who apply. It's a "members" club don't forget.
Also - these still may be achievable:
3 An average crowd that fills more than 40% of a club’s stadium capacity.
10 Compliance with salary-cap regulations. Specifically, clubs must not have incurred any breach of the salary cap in the last three years.
Apart from that, you make a good case for your argument.
gutterfax wrote:One (or two) from Widnes, Leigh or Halifax 2012 I don't think a second French team is needed yet, or another London one for that matter either.
You're starting to sound like a Rosenfield there, it's not a question of "needed", it's a question of best application (we hope). Do we "need" Widnes/Fax/Leigh? Do we "need" to expand the comp tbeyond 14 teams in 2012?
I think that the only fair decision would be best applicant in 2011, whethr it's the 800th Yorkshire club or Wellington Orcas.
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